Looking for Some General Bottle-feeding Information

[saysfaa]

Jul 11, 2017 23:49:01 GMT -5 @seth said:

The calf didn't want the bottle tonight. (??) Oh, I guess it's just the same old story. His mother has not been eating that much recently (really since I penned the two up). She seems to be lying around more; tonight, when she was up and eating, she seemed very stiff - she acted like she was in pain whenever she moved. She has grass hay (older, but stored inside) and grain available to her, though to play it safe, I'm going to toss out the leftover hay and get her something better tomorrow. 

Are bathroom scales sufficient for weighing a calf?

I'm going to try one more thing before I get off the fence.

Better feed would certainly be good but it isn't the cause of the cow's pain and illness. That is typical of mastitis.



Have you ever gotten anything out of the LF quarter? Like enough to see if it is white milk? (that is the quarter the calf did the best with, right?)



And it isn't necessarily the same old story with the calf because it is likely more than one thing is going on with him... partly how much he has had to eat, but he is also likely to have an upset stomach at least some of the time from all the changes in what and how much he is eating.

The bathroom scales are sufficient for some purposes in weighing a calf, not so much for other purposes. They are kinda notorious for being off anyway but they are usually off by the same amount each time so they are sufficient for measuring how much a calf has eaten if you weight him just before and just after he eats. He won't fit to stand on the scales himself, of course, so you have to pick him up. And then you can't see the dial while you are holding him, so a second person is helpful or you might be able to take a picture of the dial and/or make a sling to hold the calf out of your line of sight. It is better if the floor is firm and reasonably level so a couple of square feet of plywood to put the scales on is helpful when its grass near the calf.

[elnini]

If you have a set of hanging scales you can rig up a sling for him, a bit easier to read if you are on your own.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2017 6:03:56 GMT -5 elnini said:

If you have a set of hanging scales you can rig up a sling for him, a bit easier to read if you are on your own.

Yes, but unfortunately, I don't. Seems that other than calves, there's never much need for scales on our farm. (Hmm)

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2017 1:05:41 GMT -5 saysfaa said:

Jul 11, 2017 23:49:01 GMT -5 @seth said:

The calf didn't want the bottle tonight. (??) Oh, I guess it's just the same old story. His mother has not been eating that much recently (really since I penned the two up). She seems to be lying around more; tonight, when she was up and eating, she seemed very stiff - she acted like she was in pain whenever she moved. She has grass hay (older, but stored inside) and grain available to her, though to play it safe, I'm going to toss out the leftover hay and get her something better tomorrow. 

Are bathroom scales sufficient for weighing a calf?

I'm going to try one more thing before I get off the fence.

Better feed would certainly be good but it isn't the cause of the cow's pain and illness. That is typical of mastitis.



Have you ever gotten anything out of the LF quarter? Like enough to see if it is white milk? (that is the quarter the calf did the best with, right?)



And it isn't necessarily the same old story with the calf because it is likely more than one thing is going on with him... partly how much he has had to eat, but he is also likely to have an upset stomach at least some of the time from all the changes in what and how much he is eating.

The bathroom scales are sufficient for some purposes in weighing a calf, not so much for other purposes. They are kinda notorious for being off anyway but they are usually off by the same amount each time so they are sufficient for measuring how much a calf has eaten if you weight him just before and just after he eats. He won't fit to stand on the scales himself, of course, so you have to pick him up. And then you can't see the dial while you are holding him, so a second person is helpful or you might be able to take a picture of the dial and/or make a sling to hold the calf out of your line of sight. It is better if the floor is firm and reasonably level so a couple of square feet of plywood to put the scales on is helpful when its grass near the calf.

Yes, I did get several squirts or more of normal-looking milk out of the LF quarter yesterday morning. And you are correct, the calf (to the best of my knowledge) has only been nursing from that quarter. 

[jerseyrose]

Jul 12, 2017 8:36:37 GMT -5 @seth said:

Jul 12, 2017 1:05:41 GMT -5 saysfaa said:

Better feed would certainly be good but it isn't the cause of the cow's pain and illness. That is typical of mastitis.



Have you ever gotten anything out of the LF quarter? Like enough to see if it is white milk? (that is the quarter the calf did the best with, right?)



And it isn't necessarily the same old story with the calf because it is likely more than one thing is going on with him... partly how much he has had to eat, but he is also likely to have an upset stomach at least some of the time from all the changes in what and how much he is eating.

The bathroom scales are sufficient for some purposes in weighing a calf, not so much for other purposes. They are kinda notorious for being off anyway but they are usually off by the same amount each time so they are sufficient for measuring how much a calf has eaten if you weight him just before and just after he eats. He won't fit to stand on the scales himself, of course, so you have to pick him up. And then you can't see the dial while you are holding him, so a second person is helpful or you might be able to take a picture of the dial and/or make a sling to hold the calf out of your line of sight. It is better if the floor is firm and reasonably level so a couple of square feet of plywood to put the scales on is helpful when its grass near the calf.

Yes, I did get several squirts or more of normal-looking milk out of the LF quarter yesterday morning. And you are correct, the calf (to the best of my knowledge) has only been nursing from that quarter. 

If he is nursing and getting enough off that quarter, then shouldn't you get her on an antibiotic or something to get this cleared up? She feels bad and isn't eating much , how will she have enough milk for this calf if you don't?

ETA: If you are treating, I missed it.

[simplynaturalfarm]

She's a beef cow - beef cows are not generally treated for mastitis. I had herefords who had blind quarters or too much production and they would unfortunately go off and punky for a day or two after calving until the milk dried up. Even dexter breeders I know do this. I eventually culled the ones with too high production because you can't make even a small living off animals that you have to baby like that, milk out quarters til calf can keep up, or treat for mastitis.
I think often on KFC (keeping a family cow ) we forget how much time we spend babying our cows.

I always find that it is worth my while to have a beef cow attitude about my girls as it strengthens their genetics instead of me constantly making up for the problems they have. But beef cow attitude while giving them the extra feed and such their dairy genetics require.

At this point, I'm not even sure what you mean by treating her for mastitis. An IM teat probably wouldn't be that helpful, you could do systemic abx but we know those aren't that great for infection (but we probably would have given her something to help her from feeling off - even aspirin or meloxicam).
She isn't giving milk out of three quarters, the last has milk, but not enough to sustain a calf.

Seth, I hope you find a solution that works for you. I admit I am a harsh culler so I often come across as very unfeeling - I would have butchered the Mom and bottle fed the calf or sold him as a bottle calf to some crazy person willing to pay $500 for a well started bottle calf. Once 18 years ago I gave a cow a second chance and all I did was lose another year of feed when she didn't get bred. BUT I am in a climate that requires hay feeding 6-7 months a year, so I have a short calving interval (they must calve May and June), and high expenses.

Harsh culling is NOT easy even though people think because I can do it, it must be easy for me.
I cried more than few tears this morning when we shot my favorite sow when I was forced to make a hard decision to butcher her. She farrowed yesterday with only one piglet in the litter (she was in excellent condition and the others farrowed with 9+) then she was fighting the other sows over food so they have lost a bit of weight since farrowing 10 days ago (she is the biggest and always gets the most food), then yesterday and today we had to rescue her baby a couple times when she flopped onto it and then the final straw was she has nasty smelling discharge today
We could have tried oxytocin and seen if she came around, but if I used abx I wouldn't have been able to butcher her and I don't keep sows that don't have a minimum of 8 piglets. She had four good years for us, but something up this year.
I could not justify continuing to feed her in order for her to nurse one piglet (the other sows have lots of milk) and I didn't want to stress about her getting sick on the weekend with my husband gone.
But all of those good reasons, did not make it any easier for me to call her and have her follow me 200 feet to where my husband waited with his gun.

[marseydoats]

SNF, I'm sorry. What a rough morning!

[eon69nc]

Harsh culling is the quickest way to correct issues in herd/flock etc. Always best to get those with defects out, those which require the most work, those which do not pay their way. I too cull harsh

[rosalind]

If the scale goes high enough, we would just stand on the scale, note our weight, then pick up the calf and subtract the human's weight to get an approximate calf weight. That said, I never weigh my animals - lol - we go by other measures for health.

The cow may be acting stiff because she is locked up. Show cows will do this if there's not enough bedding underneath them. You'd think that cows sleep all summer on the ground, why should this be any different, but being confined and unable to roam about all day really does cramp up a cow if she's left there a long time.

Is it possible to let the cow out or at least into a larger pen for part of the day?

[Deleted]

Thank you all. I will give an update in the morning. It has been an emotionally and physically stressful day.

simplynaturalfarm, I'm sorry to hear about your morning.  You weren't the only one who had a rough day......

[marseydoats]

Seth, I'm sorry. Hope things are better today! Sending you a hug from an old lady.

[Deleted]

Yesterday felt a little like an unpleasant dream that you're hoping to wakeup from, but of course, it was reality.

At around noon, I arrived to find Milan dead. I'm guessing he died sometime during the early morning. Total shock. Just several hours before, I was petting him and he seemed fine (or at least not any different than other days). I'll be honest, I was already attached to that calf. Nettie was in the same condition or a bit worse. It was a challenge moving her out of the pen she was in. She did move around some throughout the day, but it's obviously hard for her. I can't rule out that being confined didn't have something to do with it, but this seems more extensive than just stiffness. I have to wonder if she was already dealing with something (mastitis), and then the stress of confinement and change of diet just exacerbated the problem. She's losing condition (not surprising if she's not eating much), and I noticed she was, on occasion, grinding her teeth. I regret that I didn't cull her earlier at the first signs of issues; this is the last thing I want to see her suffer. I guess now our only options are to treat her in order to get her well enough to send to auction, or put her down right here on the farm.

Milan's death leaves more questions than answers for me, but the more I think about it, I can't help but suspect the following scenario:
When I found him, he was inside the shed, sprawled out, in the center of the floor; normally he would lay down somewhere in a corner. In Nettie's weakened state, I really have to wonder if she might not have accidentally laid down on him...... It sickens me to think this may have happened, as just hours before, I had tried to move Nettie out of the pen (for a couple reasons); something that would have prevented this. But I gave up in trying to do so.

I cannot say that I wasn't warned by those on this forum that things could get to this point. My inexperience with this kind of situation kept me on the fence too long.

I want to thank all of you who have taken the time to share advice and try to help me with this situation. It was not totally in vain; I know a lot more than I did when this started, plus I'll have a thread to reference if such issues arise in the future. Situations like this are stressful, but I know I need to simply learn from my mistakes and then move forward.

Any advice on how we should go about treating Nettie? We're obviously dealing with something more than an udder ailment now.

[rosalind]

On no - so so sorry to hear about your calf. Please don't feel guilty, as we all know you did your best to keep him strong! Sometimes these things just happen.

As far as the cow - grinding teeth, stiffness, etc. implies pain and perhaps infection (does she have a fever yet?)

If you have not treated her with antibiotics and she is still mobile, you could send her to a sale barn still. Or could put her down and either bury her or cut up the meat for dog food, etc.

I'm afraid if you have a vet out, the cost will be expensive, plus antibiotics have a certain withhold time, and the udder is already in limited capacity.... If it makes you feel better having the vet out and trying to save the cow, then the money is worth peace of mind.

[Deleted]

I have not checked her temperature yet. I guess my only goal right now is to not let her suffer day after day.

[Deleted]

What a terrible day. I'm so sorry it ended that way for Milan.

We've ALL learned those lessons. My latest was with a sow I felt in my gut should be induced but didn't because I tend to be more hands off. No piglets survived. She cleaned fine and and came back into heat a few days later. For various reasons she hadn't made any money in a year and a half. I've got a long waiting list for meat customers, so I took her to be processed this past Tuesday. I so wanted her to work out as a breeder, but she didn't. Sometimes the animals we probably should cull end up culling themselves.

[saysfaa]

Jul 13, 2017 10:46:22 GMT -5 @seth said:

Any advice on how we should go about treating Nettie? We're obviously dealing with something more than an udder ailment now.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I recommend butchering Nettie as soon as you can.  Either at a slaughter house where the meat will be inspected or at home for pet food. I would probably eat myself but that is based on guessing what is happening without seeing anything for myself so I don't want to recommend other people eat that meat.

My best guess is that it is mastitis. Which is making her not feel good which makes her not want to move much or eat much which are causing the symptoms that are not directly from the mastitis.

I don't recommend trying to treat her at this point because the best case scenario is she will end up an old, one (outside chance of two) quartered cow. That is enough to cull, imho. That it would be painful is additional reason not to try to treat her.

But if it is not enough to make the decision, then I'd consider the chances of getting to the best case scenario.  Getting there at all assumes that you can milk out her front two quarters thoroughly (which is an iffy thing) at least two or three times per day (which I think is really hard with your work schedule). And assumes that you either get lucky in picking which antibiotic to use or can send samples in to be cultured to see which kind of mastitis it is.  If you start treating her and she gets worse so that you don't want to continue - then there will be withholding on the meat.

[corrae]

So very sorry, @seth... Raising livestock is not for the faint of heart. Sending cyber hugs your way.

[jerseyrose]

Jul 12, 2017 14:26:05 GMT -5 simplynaturalfarm said:

She's a beef cow - beef cows are not generally treated for mastitis. I had herefords who had blind quarters or too much production and they would unfortunately go off and punky for a day or two after calving until the milk dried up. Even dexter breeders I know do this. I eventually culled the ones with too high production because you can't make even a small living off animals that you have to baby like that, milk out quarters til calf can keep up, or treat for mastitis.
I think often on KFC (keeping a family cow ) we forget how much time we spend babying our cows.

I always find that it is worth my while to have a beef cow attitude about my girls as it strengthens their genetics instead of me constantly making up for the problems they have. But beef cow attitude while giving them the extra feed and such their dairy genetics require.

At this point, I'm not even sure what you mean by treating her for mastitis. An IM teat probably wouldn't be that helpful, you could do systemic abx but we know those aren't that great for infection (but we probably would have given her something to help her from feeling off - even aspirin or meloxicam).
She isn't giving milk out of three quarters, the last has milk, but not enough to sustain a calf.

Seth, I hope you find a solution that works for you. I admit I am a harsh culler so I often come across as very unfeeling - I would have butchered the Mom and bottle fed the calf or sold him as a bottle calf to some crazy person willing to pay $500 for a well started bottle calf. Once 18 years ago I gave a cow a second chance and all I did was lose another year of feed when she didn't get bred. BUT I am in a climate that requires hay feeding 6-7 months a year, so I have a short calving interval (they must calve May and June), and high expenses.

Harsh culling is NOT easy even though people think because I can do it, it must be easy for me.
I cried more than few tears this morning when we shot my favorite sow when I was forced to make a hard decision to butcher her. She farrowed yesterday with only one piglet in the litter (she was in excellent condition and the others farrowed with 9+) then she was fighting the other sows over food so they have lost a bit of weight since farrowing 10 days ago (she is the biggest and always gets the most food), then yesterday and today we had to rescue her baby a couple times when she flopped onto it and then the final straw was she has nasty smelling discharge today
We could have tried oxytocin and seen if she came around, but if I used abx I wouldn't have been able to butcher her and I don't keep sows that don't have a minimum of 8 piglets. She had four good years for us, but something up this year.
I could not justify continuing to feed her in order for her to nurse one piglet (the other sows have lots of milk) and I didn't want to stress about her getting sick on the weekend with my husband gone.
But all of those good reasons, did not make it any easier for me to call her and have her follow me 200 feet to where my husband waited with his gun.

I was under the impression that untreated she would eventually get sick herself and probably infect the remaining quarter? Is this not what happens in beef animals?

I have never dealt with mastitis in any cow and just once in a goat that we put down as it was too far advanced ( gangrene) when I finally realized something was going on.

I am sorry about your sow. They can become really special to us , can't they?

ETA: @seth

I am so sorry about Milan. It sounds like the cow is feeling badly now and honestly if she has just 1 good quarter I would make the rough decision to end it here. I am so sorry that things have gone this way. Sometimes farm life stinks

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2017 12:13:52 GMT -5 saysfaa said:

Jul 13, 2017 10:46:22 GMT -5 @seth said:

Any advice on how we should go about treating Nettie? We're obviously dealing with something more than an udder ailment now.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I recommend butchering Nettie as soon as you can.  Either at a slaughter house where the meat will be inspected or at home for pet food. I would probably eat myself but that is based on guessing what is happening without seeing anything for myself so I don't want to recommend other people eat that meat.

My best guess is that it is mastitis. Which is making her not feel good which makes her not want to move much or eat much which are causing the symptoms that are not directly from the mastitis.

I don't recommend trying to treat her at this point because the best case scenario is she will end up an old, one (outside chance of two) quartered cow. That is enough to cull, imho. That it would be painful is additional reason not to try to treat her.

But if it is not enough to make the decision, then I'd consider the chances of getting to the best case scenario.  Getting there at all assumes that you can milk out her front two quarters thoroughly (which is an iffy thing) at least two or three times per day (which I think is really hard with your work schedule). And assumes that you either get lucky in picking which antibiotic to use or can send samples in to be cultured to see which kind of mastitis it is.  If you start treating her and she gets worse so that you don't want to continue - then there will be withholding on the meat.

The problem we're facing right now is that she seems to sore to walk much, so I doubt we could even get her into a trailer to take her anywhere. My only reason for treating her at this point would be to get her to recover enough to send her to slaughter. I have no intentions of trying to save her for future reproduction; she will be culled either way. 

Would LA-200 do any good in this case? Of course, if she recovered, there would then be a withdrawal period afterward before taking her in......

[talithathecow15]

@seth I'm so sorry your having to deal with all this! Praying the Lord gives you peace and wisdom.
Could you give her some pain medicine? Maybe that'd get her feeling good enough to load into a trailer. Just a though...