Looking for Some General Bottle-feeding Information

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2017 14:45:29 GMT -5 sawnut said:

Jul 8, 2017 14:01:28 GMT -5 @seth said:

Yes, I do (I actually bought one recently for times such as these). Will I need to be prepared for him to put up a fight when I insert the thermometer up his rectum, or is there no discomfort involved?

well, he may not agree completely but if you are gentle and the thermometer isn't ice cold, he won't fight you.  Put a little bit of lube on the end such as bag balm, vaseline, or coconut oil, etc.  I stand at their side and press them up against a wall in the barn or a fence.  Then with my left hand I rub his neck and scratch his dewlap while telling him he is such a good boy.  Then with my right hand (right handed here) gently slip it in.  If it stops going in easy, just work it back and forth until it is at least 1 inch inside.  Preferrably 2 inches.  Allow plenty of time to get a good reading.  The thermometer tip takes sometimes 1 minute or more to absorb the heat from his body.  If you are getting erroneous readings like 98 degrees for example, then you need to leave it in longer.

Feel his ears and make a note if his nose is wet or dry.  Listen to see if he is grinding his teeth.  Feel his belly just behind his navel and gauge how much food he has in there.  A well fed calf will feel as though they are carrying a balloon full of milk.  If he is super gaunt, then you're going to need to give him more support.

Will he drink a bottle of electrolytes?  Maybe try and give him a couple quarts of Mannapro Bounce Back.  Those are really good electrolytes.  There is also another thing we get at Rural King called Arrest.  It is a packet of electrolytes and energy with a thickening agent (psyllium husk).  Just now I can't find a link to it on Rural King but they have it at my location.  It is great stuff to help out calves.  Maybe try a couple bottles on him and see how he reacts.  Maybe he just isn't able to do much with the milk replacer you have.  Wouldn't be the first time,
Advance Arrest: www.mannapro.com/products/young-animal/advance/digestion-stress-supplements/arrest
Also another good product that does the same thing: One day response.  Rural king carries this too.  I have used a lot of these.
www.ruralking.com/one-day-response.html

His ears are not cold, yet not hot either. His nose is a little wet (not dry anyway). He's not grinding his teeth. His belly feels rather empty. He doesn't look super gaunt, yet I think he's far from looking good, considering his age.

I haven't tried electrolytes yet.........

Last but not least, thank you for the detailed advice on taking his temperature; I was ready to do it tonight, then my headlamp battery went dead. No way I was going to try to take a calf's temp for the first time in the dark!

[sawnut]

@seth, you are very welcome. He sounds like he is doing okay apart from needing a little more food. But luke warm ears are good and so is a wet nose. When their ears get cold to the base, or are very warm and they have a dry nose, that is when you know you have troubles.

If you can swing by Rural King and pick up a few of those packets of Arrest or One Day Response, try feeding those to him. All my calves would drink them just like milk. The psyllium husk makes a noticeable difference in their poop. You know what it is when it comes out and it helps them if they might be scouring.

Best of luck. You are doing just fine.

[Deleted]

Below are various pictures taken this morning.

Here's the calf:

Sorry, I would have gotten one from a better angle if I had been snapping for evaluation purposes.

Here's his mother's udder (ugh, the flies):

This is the fluid I milked out of her LR quarter this morning:

Most of the visible debris is not from her udder; however, there were a couple bits of whitish solids in the fluid. When I let it set for awhile, it appeared more like oil with blood settled in the bottom.

For something a little lighthearted: My dad and I had just finished tagging and banding the most recent calf, and we were discussing Nettie and her calf. Dad asked me if Nettie would let me milk her while she just stood there. "Sure", I said. I climbed into the pen and tried to milk her, though she gently started swiping at my hand and moving away. Then Dad, who is a better "hand-milker" than me, climbed into the pen and tried milking her. She then started swiping at his hand and moving away. When he persisted, she then resigned to kicking. Just when the man-in-charge shows up, she then acts ugly.  

This evening, when I arrived to feed the calf, I found him up and nosing around his mother's udder (a good sign, but really?). Her LF teat was substantially more deflated than this morning. I tried milking the LR again but nothing was there, except for a droplet of the dark fluid (nothing surprising). I offered him the bottle - he seemed uninterested this time, but finally drank a couple ounces or so.

So, I guess I'll be monitoring him often to see what we're dealing with. Even if he managed to empty a quarter, I'm not sure we're out-of-the-woods yet. This whole situation needs a watchful eye, before I'd have the confidence let them go back to pasture.

Okay, I'm finished.  Comments? Thoughts?  

[Deleted]

Oh, and here's what his feces are like:

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2017 23:34:40 GMT -5 sawnut said:

@seth , you are very welcome. He sounds like he is doing okay apart from needing a little more food. But luke warm ears are good and so is a wet nose. When their ears get cold to the base, or are very warm and they have a dry nose, that is when you know you have troubles.

If you can swing by Rural King and pick up a few of those packets of Arrest or One Day Response, try feeding those to him. All my calves would drink them just like milk. The psyllium husk makes a noticeable difference in their poop. You know what it is when it comes out and it helps them if they might be scouring.

Best of luck. You are doing just fine.

I'll look into these products; I like the idea better than mixing up a homemade solution of electrolytes.

[sawnut]

@seth , those front quarters are pretty loaded. I can't say for sure, but it appears the left front quarter still has its teat plug. Maybe he can suck on that teat, but if its plugged, nothing will come out. She swipes at you because it is so sensitive and tender from all the pressure. If I were in front of her, I would grease that teat up but good with bag balm or A and D ointment, or just anything to keep it soft and moist and slick. Then grab the teat and close it off at the top and squeeze it and see if you can get the plug blown out. I am totally assuming you have never got a drop of milk out of the front teats? They look like there should be tons of milk in there. Even if there were mastitis in there, you'd get a bunch of clear yellow fluid out with some chunks. I just don't see how it would be possible for those quarters to be dry and that blown out.
Maybe some others will chime in. simplynaturalfarm Debbie Lincoln bnb87 Kelsey we need help!!

[sawnut]

Oh by the way, he is a nice looking calf. Yes he is a little gaunt, but his ears are perky and he looks alert. The calf poop looks okay. Not ideal, but really not bad either. I think they often don't make perfect poop on milk replacer, so you take what you can get. But at least it doesn't look too wet or scoury. I'd say you are doing a good job with him. I would be a little concerned if he missed out on his colostrum as a new born given the circumstances.

[simplynaturalfarm]

Those front quarters don't look good at this point it would be very hard for him to nurse and they don't look like they were touched which is not u common in beef cows - nobody intervenes when a calf isn't nursing all quarters.

What I would do that would solve all of these questions is lock him away from mom so he can't nurse for 8 hours and then put them together and see if he goes right up to those back teats and nurses. Right now we are speculating about everything and we know calves can be excellent hidden nursers. So I would see if he is managing anything off mom .

I would respectfully disagree with the use of an electrolyte with psyllium - research showed it just ulks up stools without benefiting calf, so it just makes the owner feel better about using it. It has also been known to reduce calves energy.

The main reason I would separate the calf is that all the electrolytes and such end up being costly. Calves and cows are valuable enough to save , and a punky poor doing calf is not going to pick up weight like he should so needs treatment, but putzing around with a bit of this and that gets costly quickly when you need to make a living on cows. The easiest way to check this is to simply separate him from mom and see can he nurse. I have my largest calf(at three months she is same size as one of my yearling's!) And yet I have not seen her nurse in a month... They can be hard to observe nursing. If he is nursing and just needs some help, all this time and milk replacer and electrolytes could be tweaked to what he needs.

[jerseyrose]

I am unclear on something. Is that bloody liquid coming from all her teats? Have you tried milking all her teats?
sawnut is right . The plug still appears to be in the opening of at least that front teat..

Nice calf. Hopefully you can get him sorted out.

[bnb87]

I have no experience with beef cows, so not sure I could offer any advice of value. Just one question though, is that left front teat usually that dark color or is that new? Seems like the front quarters are good and full for sure. I wonder if milking some out of them would make it easier for the calf to latch on? Once again, not any experience at all with beef cows, so if none of this applies, do feel free to ignore this comment.

Will still be hoping the best for you there!!

[Deleted]

Well, as of this evening, I'm convinced that he has successfully nursed at least once in the last 24 hours. This morning, I took him a pint (slightly over) of replacer, which he somewhat reluctantly consumed, though he's looking and acting brighter. This evening, he didn't want anything to do with the bottle. His mother's LF teat still looks deflated, so I have a feeling he's using that one. The other is still full. I have a feeling that the rear quarters have dried up.

This morning, I took his temperature. It was much easier than I (or my dad) had expected; he remained lying down the whole time, though my dad was there keeping him calm, so that probably made the difference. The calf's reading was 102.0 - 102.1 degrees F, so no fever.

sawnut, No, I have never gotten anything out of the front quarters, though as mentioned above, the calf appears to have drained the LF.

simplynaturalfarm, I'll try separating the two tomorrow (weather permitting).

jerseyrose, That dark fluid was drawn from the LR quarter only. I have tried milking all four, though I have only managed to get anything out of the LR.

bnb87, That teat has been dark like that, though since when, I do not know. The shadows may be causing some optical illusions though... I guess I hadn't noticed the color until looking at the picture.

[marseydoats]

And here's another one of my stupid questions --- can she produce enough off of one quarter to adequately feed him?
Seth, I just don't want you to lose your calf --- not trying to be snarky.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2017 4:34:24 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

And here's another one of my stupid questions --- can she produce enough off of one quarter to adequately feed him?
Seth, I just don't want you to lose your calf --- not trying to be snarky.

That's not a stupid question at all. I can't answer it myself, though my hope is that he'll manage to drain the other front quarter as he has this one; may not happen without some intervention though. And I'm not turning them out to pasture again until I know he's getting his fill.

And I do sincerely appreciate your concern.

[saysfaa]

I recommend culturing whatever you can get out of each quarter and seeing what you are dealing with. I think it is only partly a matter of whether this old cow is worth treating; it is also treating (or culling) her for her comfort/benefit because mastitis can be quite painful for her.

[jerseyrose]

Jul 10, 2017 8:39:58 GMT -5 @seth said:

Jul 10, 2017 4:34:24 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

And here's another one of my stupid questions --- can she produce enough off of one quarter to adequately feed him?
Seth, I just don't want you to lose your calf --- not trying to be snarky.

That's not a stupid question at all. I can't answer it myself, though my hope is that he'll manage to drain the other front quarter as he has this one; may not happen without some intervention though. And I'm not turning them out to pasture again until I know he's getting his fill.

And I do sincerely appreciate your concern.

Glad to hear you are going to watch him closely. I do hope he is nursing.

[Deleted]

Today's report:

I did not take the bottle with me this morning. When I arrived, the calf (whom I have named Milan ) mooed softly at me and came up (different from the past few visits), though he didn't act like he was ragingly hungry. When he figured out I didn't have anything for him, he went over and started sucking on the LF teat; he would just pass over the RF teat, which was still full and untouched. I was reconsidering my plan to separate the two, yet after watching Milan's behavior, I moved forward with the original plan; around noon, I waited until he went inside the shed and laid down, then I fastened a cattle panel across the corner of the shed where he was. I gave him a bucket of water, then left.

11 hours later, after 11:00 PM, I went over and removed the panel. Nettie seemed totally unconcerned, and remained lying down the whole time I was there. Milan was obviously hungry. I led him over to his mother's udder, got him onto the LF teat (the teat and the quarter itself still looked and felt rather deflated, considering it had been 11 hours), though judging by the sound and appearance, I don't think he was getting anything. I noticed while massaging the RF teat, that something was sticking out of the end; I gently pulled it out, and sure enough, it was the plug! I then was able to milk out several squirts of a transparent to darkish colored fluid (not as dark as what was coming from the LR quarter, which I am still able draw a very small amount of fluid from). After that, I noticed some yellowish substance at the teat's opening.

So, I don't know.....

[saysfaa]

The transparent to darkish colored fluid and the yellowish substance is pus from the infection in there.

She stayed down the whole time you were there? Not even getting up so he could eat?

What is it that you don't know?

[Deleted]

I guess the greatest unknown to me right now is whether or not she's producing enough milk. The calf emptied, or at least partially emptied, the LF quarter at some point recently, yet it does not seem to be filling back up, even after the two were separated for over 11 hours yesterday. I should have a better idea of what's going on this morning, but I'll take along the bottle, just in case.

To answer your first two questions, yes, she remained down the whole time I was there (20 minutes or so); she was alert, and her usual (calm) self, just not in a hurry to get up.

[saysfaa]

If she didn't get up to let him nurse... that is NOT good. Did you actively try to get her up?

Assuming the calf was separated again - when you go over this morning... weigh him, let him nurse, weigh him again. Now you know how much he can get from her.

I would still milk that quarter too - at least enough to see if it looks like milk. I know you said you haven't been able to milk that quarter yet. Have you tried using both hands (it looks like it might be blown enough to be hard to milk with one hand. Or ask you dad, who I think you said has a lot more experience milking cows.

Or get a teat dilater (bag balm is a good brand name for them); don't leave it in, just use it to get enough to see. Well, actually, if you do use it you may as well catch whatever you get and measure it. And then take it out. And do the weigh-the-calf thing at later feedings.

[Deleted]

No, I made no attempt to get her up. I left the two together over night, figuring she would eventually get up and let him nurse. She apparently did get up at some point, as she was lying elsewhere when I went over this morning (and she did get up when I called the other cows to take them to a different paddock). I milked a decent amount of clear (or slightly colored) fluid out of the RF quarter, along with a large (enough to fill the palm of my hand) with yellowish colored solids. I was able to get some milk out of the LF quarter, too. The RF quarter does feel kind of hard; not rock hard though.

So, my question for today is, is what I'm finding a sure sign of mastitis, or are there any other possible causes?

I guess my frustration at this point is not knowing what the calf is really getting; today, I gave him a quart of replacer, and he probably would have taken more. That was different from the past two days. I guess if I had an old pair of bathroom scales, I could do the weighing suggestion......