Looking for Some General Bottle-feeding Information

[Deleted]

One of our eight-year-old shorthorns had a large bull calf June 25th. For the next five days, I never witnessed him nursing. At three days of age, I noticed his feces were yellow (less-than-ideal in consistency) with a sour-milk-like odor, so I'm quite certain he had nursed at some point, hopefully early enough to receive colostrum.

In the days that followed, however, it was obvious he was not nursing; I would see him sucking around on his mother's hide (particularly her brisket), while he continued to lose condition. So last Saturday, I brought both up to the calving pen, and put the calf on a bottle. So far, he is doing better. He got an excellent sucking reflex, it just seems that he's lost his mind on where to get nourishment from his mother. I'm working to get him to figure out how to nurse on his mother again, which has gone well except for one big problem - SHE's not letting down when I get her calf to latch on. She is one of our best cows as far as disposition goes, for which I'm very thankful; she doesn't necessarily like to be touched from the front, yet she'll allow me to handle her udder, especially if the calf is close-by, so thankfully I haven't had to restrain her, as our head-catch is still down for repairs.

So, right now we're taking one day at a time. The first six bottle-feedings have been as follows: 40 oz., 48 oz., 48 oz., 40 oz., 16 oz., 32 oz. I am currently feeding one of the more expensive brands of milk replacer available at the local farm store (I know, I should know more about it than that, but I don't at the moment). I am feeding twice a day, usually late morning/early afternoon and late evening. For those of you who dislike the idea of milk replacer, I simply will have to say I don't have a choice at this time..... 

So, my main questions are:

1) How much should a nine-day-old calf (probably still under 100 lbs.) be fed? I'm not sure yet that I trust the feeding guidelines on the M.R. bag.

2) What would the ideal feeding interval be? (My schedule is a bit odd, like 9:00 AM to 1:00 AM, but I might be able adjust if I have to. )

Anything else I should be aware of? I hope this doesn't become a long-term bottle-feeding (my goal is to get him back on his mother), but for now, I want to do what I can to keep him as healthy as possible.

Thank you in advance.

       

[darcelina4]

I've raised quite a few bottle calves. First-can you milk momma and feed him her milk? Second-can you tie her or put her in a stanchion and have him drink direct from her?. Third- make sure milk replacer is all milk protein and no soy. Fourth- he should he drinking a 2 quart bottle every 12 hours. I don't feed more because they will scour. If it is really cold I give a third bottle. If really hot I feed a bottle of electrolytes in between. The advantages of moms milk is that he gets immunity protection from her milk to ward off disease but won't get that on milk replacer. Fifth-be consistent on feeding times. Dont feed milk and electrolytes within a few hours of each other. Sixth-watch for signs of illness such as droopy ears. Take his temp each day. Make sure he stays clean and dry. Lastly-give him lots of affection. Calves seem to thrive better when you love on them. Good luck.

[rd200]

I'd feed 2 quarts for now each feeding , spaced as close to 12 hrs apart as possible. Is the MR a 20/20??
Calves can handle more than 2 quarts easy, they just need to work up to it a little and have fresh water available at all times. If you wanted to feed more, you can do 3 quarts, 3xs a day. Thats what we did with the calves I managed on the large dairy. They grew excellent!! No mkre problems with scours than 2 quarts a day. In fact, we had much less problems overall as 1 gallon a day isnt much milk at all for any calf. That recommendation is because they want calves to be hungry so they eat calf starter which is cheaper than MR by far. So the goal in feeding 1 gallon a day is to get the calf onto starter and weaned early.

If I had a bottle baby id feed 3 quarts, 3xs a day with 8 hours in between and fresh water at all times.

[jerseyrose]

Are you keeping him with her 24/7? If your ultimate goal is getting them together than you want him to be strong enough to keep trying to nurse and be hungry enough to want to nurse and keep at it until he gets it right.

I have done this with more goat kids than I care to remember, but in all cases as long as mom was willing I got them together.

You will have to see what amounts work well for accomplishing your goal.

[Debbie Lincoln]

@dancelina4 Seth said the cow isn't letting down for the calf - probably isn't for him, either.

Seth, I would feed that calf ONE QUART at a feeding and leave him hungry enough to go after momma with a vengeance! If you feed him any more, he won't be motivated enough to go for her.  Her milk just simply may not be in yet, but him sucking on her will do it!

[rosalind]

Will the cow let you milk her? I'm wondering if she has milk or not.... as it seems the calf is willing to drink.

[Deleted]

darcelina4, The milk replacer is purely dairy; no soy. I'll try to work harder on the affection part.

rd200, What are you referring to when you say 20/20? I have seen him on one occasion try hard to drink out of the water trough, though it's too tall for him. Any ideas on what I could provide water in that he could drink out of, yet his mother could not?

jerseyrose, He is with his mother 24/7.

Debbie Lincoln, The problem at this point is when I feed him less, he'll indeed go after momma (or me ), yet unless I'm there, he'll go for her brisket or flank; when I've gotten him on a teat (and there's nothing there), he just begins searching elsewhere. I'll give him a quart tonight.

rosalind, I must admit, I have zero skill on hand-milking at this point, yet even I did, I doubt that she would let down for me; she'll stand still momentarily (longer if the calf is there), but she doesn't seem to be letting down. Her udder looks and feels full, yet not as much as last year.

Is it possible that she has issues as far as not letting down, and that's why the calf appears to have "lost" his knowhow on where to nurse?

[elnini]

Basically, you can feed him enough to keep him alive and growing with the three feeds every 8 hours and he'll still have eight hours to get hungry and poke around. He's probably going to be alot hungrier than the average calf on a cow long before you get there with the bottle because calves on cows feed opportunistically.

Your best ally is an energetic curious calf, so don't skimp on his feed. Plus, if it ends up he needs to be fed for the duration the better start he gets the better he'll do for your freezer or for sale.

When I supplement lambs I feed the bottom end of the recommendation for their full diet. ie if the range is 150 - 200 ml per feed I do the 150ml. It's still enough to raise them, but they'll be keen for more. I don't go under what the full diet says though. If I were going to raise them without mum from the start I'd do the 200ml, I like those big kick starts for hearty lambs.

Why do you want water that the calf can drink out of but the cow can't ?

Have you been able to get a squirt of milk out of all the teats ?

If he has indeed found the teats and nursed and had a meal or two at the beginning, but is now looking for other options, yes it would seem that the problem is with mum, the letdown since she's apparently standing ok for him. Once they know where to get milk reliably I've never seen a calf forget, so it sounds like the taps aren't on reliably. That's pretty odd for an experienced cow...

[marseydoats]

How about a shot of oxytocin to make the cow let down? Would that be an option?

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2017 3:53:24 GMT -5 elnini said:

Basically, you can feed him enough to keep him alive and growing with the three feeds every 8 hours and he'll still have eight hours to get hungry and poke around. He's probably going to be alot hungrier than the average calf on a cow long before you get there with the bottle because calves on cows feed opportunistically.

Your best ally is an energetic curious calf, so don't skimp on his feed. Plus, if it ends up he needs to be fed for the duration the better start he gets the better he'll do for your freezer or for sale.

When I supplement lambs I feed the bottom end of the recommendation for their full diet. ie if the range is 150 - 200 ml per feed I do the 150ml. It's still enough to raise them, but they'll be keen for more. I don't go under what the full diet says though. If I were going to raise them without mum from the start I'd do the 200ml, I like those big kick starts for hearty lambs.

Why do you want water that the calf can drink out of but the cow can't ?

Have you been able to get a squirt of milk out of all the teats ?


If he has indeed found the teats and nursed and had a meal or two at the beginning, but is now looking for other options, yes it would seem that the problem is with mum, the letdown since she's apparently standing ok for him. Once they know where to get milk reliably I've never seen a calf forget, so it sounds like the taps aren't on reliably. That's pretty odd for an experienced cow...

"Why do you want water that the calf can drink out of but the cow can't ?" Because if I put a smaller, shallow container for water in the pen, I imagine she'll drain it before the calf has a chance to drink; it seems here that even if there's another water source nearby, the cows will always go after something new.

"Have you been able to get a squirt of milk out of all the teats ?" I only tried last night (not sure if I was doing it right though) on one teat and nothing. The calf has tried both front quarters and so far, nothing.

For the calf to have been excreting yellowish feces earlier last week leads me to believe he did nurse early on. 

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2017 6:01:55 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

How about a shot of oxytocin to make the cow let down? Would that be an option?

I've thought about it................

[jerseyrose]

Does she have a full udder? Is it possible she isn't producing much of anything?

[sawnut]

Jul 5, 2017 6:01:55 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

How about a shot of oxytocin to make the cow let down? Would that be an option?

Yes, this ^^^^^   Feel the calfs belly as you put him on to nurse.  If she is providing milk for him, he will put on a substantial volume in his belly.  Like as if he swallowed a small watermelon.

Make sure mom is getting free access to salt and minerals.  Many farmers do not realize the importance of sodium for lactating cows.  She may also need other things (phos, calcium, magnesium and potassium).

[Deleted]

Okay, so this morning brought more questions than answers. I fed the calf three pints, which he eagerly consumed, and was left hungry afterward. I then led him to his mother's udder, got him to latch on to her RF teat....... nothing. While he was working on that teat, I went to the LR teat and was able to milk out two squirts. SHE IS letting down some, apparently. I tried again shortly afterward, with the same results. I managed get the calf on that teat, but nothing. It's quite obvious that he's not getting anything when he sucks, even though he works at it. I tried milking the RF one that he had been sucking on, but still nothing. I must say, this morning was the first time I tried hand-milking, so I doubt that I have it completely right.

sawnut, She has free access to Redmond's mineral salt. Should we be giving our cows regular salt in addition to this?

On a side note, I did get a bucket with water that the calf can access, so long as his mother doesn't drain it.

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2017 13:08:55 GMT -5 jerseyrose said:

Does she have a full udder? Is it possible she isn't producing much of anything?

It looks and feels full, yet not as much as last year (though last year she had twins).

[sawnut]

Jul 5, 2017 15:04:47 GMT -5 @seth said:

She has free access to Redmond's mineral salt. Should we be giving our cows regular salt in addition to this?

On a side note, I did get a bucket with water that the calf can access, so long as his mother doesn't drain it.

No, the Redmond's salt is totally fine and preferred.  Since its like 93% salt (sodium chloride) it provides her with all that she needs.

Its possible, she could benefit from the other minerals I mentioned.  But your good with the Redmond's.

[sawnut]

Its a really good idea to string up a wire or other suitable fence that the calf can get under but keeps the bigger cows out. Then you can put a small bucket of clean water, special bedding and any grain you want to supplement as the calf gets to be 4 weeks old or so. It makes things so much easier when you have a calf creep. It seems if you don't keep the bigger cows out, they will just go in, eat all the grain, tip over the water buckets making a mess and then poop in the bedding and then leave.

It doesn't have to be very big at all. Just a 10x10 foot area is plenty for up to 4-5 month old calves to lounge in clean bedding.

Having clean water is important for calves. If they get thirsty, they will find something liquid to drink, but it won't always be healthy.

[bigredcow]

20/20 milk replacer refers to the protein and fat percent by dry matter. For example I feed a 22/20 milk replacer so what I feed is 22% protein and 20% fat by dry matter.

[saysfaa]

Jul 5, 2017 15:04:47 GMT -5 @seth said:

... I went to the LR teat and was able to milk out two squirts. SHE IS letting down some, apparently...

Two squirts are about what is typically in the cisterns and large ducts. A let down releases milk from the upstream of those (from the avioli), so you can typically get two squirts when the cow hasn't let down at all. It could also be that she let down but something is stopping the milk from coming down freely.

I think it is clear he is not getting milk from her now (not more than a squirt here and there anyway - not enough to even keep him at the teats when he is hungry. I am positive that it isn't him being stupid - it might have been for the first day or so but it isn't the problem now. 

Have you checked for mastitis? It isn't the only reason for not getting milk but it is among the first things to check, and if there is saltiness or are clumps - send a sample in to the lab before starting antibiotics (in case you or the vet were thinking of starting antibiotics). Plugged ducts or scar tissue inside the teats is unlikely since it is multiple teats. Edema isn't very likely this long after calving but you could check for it anyway. It is better to check these things soon as she will dry up if she goes too long without being milked (as in milk leaving the udder; not just attempts made).

Keeping him hungry in hopes that he will try harder won't work if he doesn't get milk no matter how hard he tries. 

Water for him is good but watch that he doesn't fill up with water because he can't get milk. He needs the milk (or milk replacer) much more than he needs water.

Pick him up, stand on a bathroom scales, subtract your weight from your combined weight. Feed him 10% of that per day, divided into two or three feedings. It will very likely come out to about two quarts twice per day. And will very likely be about what the directions on the bag say.  Only bottle feed him less than that if he gets enough milk from his mother that his tail starts wagging and milk foams around his nose.  You can still follow the advice of the others - in feeding him part of a meal and then directing him to his mother while he is in full feeding mode - just give him the rest of the bottle if he doesn't get enough from her.

Ideal interval is about 12 hours for twice per day feeding. They can do well on less than ideal intervals but probably not 8/16 - that 16 is a looong time for such a young calf.

[rosalind]

You should be able to get more than two squirts out of a quarter, without let-down.



"The cisterns function for milk storage (holds ~100-400 ml)." ansci.illinois.edu/static/ansc438/Mamstructure/anatomy_5.html

"60-80% of the milk is stored in the alveoli and small milk ducts, while the cistern only contains 20-40%." nydairyadmin.cce.cornell.edu/uploads/doc_113.pdf

How long of a dry period did she have? Were all four quarters functioning normal when you dried her off?

I'd be giving oxytocin to see if milk is there, checking for mastitis, etc.