Lymphangitis in Draft mare - epilogue - RIP Juno

[elia]

My Percheron/Gypsy mare has developed a recurring case of lymphangitis in her right rear leg. This causes extreme swelling of the entire limb, with profound lameness, and takes a week or more to die down. It happened once several years ago, then last July, then October, and now again. After the last time, it mostly resolved but the hock remained slightly swollen. When it flares up, she spends the first day or so lying down a lot.  By the second day, she is on her feet more and can walk, but only just.  Bute seems to help. Last time, we also gave an antibiotic (Sulfamethoxazole/Trimethoprim) and I have started her on that again. We have discussed wrapping it, but the vet says no to that. And it can't be drained.

The vet is from the allopathic camp, which is fine, but I think I need to approach this holistically if I am going to get ahead of it for the long run. I've been hunting about online, and have found one link that says to work on hindgut health with probiotics. Also movement is key. We have a small "paddock paradise" track that is open to the horses during the day, so she at least has that. They are in a paddock in the evening with a large run-in (they are never stalled).

Has anyone dealt with this before or have any ideas on what I could do, say, to reduce the inflammation?  I am wondering if there is anything I could apply to the inside upper thigh where there is less hair, that wouldn't irritate, and might encourage circulation (DMSO?). There is a lot of swelling in this area, and it is where she is most reactive when touched. I am reviewing everything in my management practices to work on her overall health. She is too fat, for one thing, so I am working on that. And she needs to be wormed. I am going to order some new probiotics and throw out the old. Otherwise things are pretty okay (overall nutrition, mineral program, hoof care). She is fourteen years old.

My vet says that it tends to become chronic/recurring because each incident produces scar tissue that makes it more likely to happen again. 

[corrae]

grassfood? Any suggestions? tassie?

[Natalia]

A lot of good info here holistichorse.com/equine-therapy/alternative-action-treating-lymphangitis/

homeopathic Apis(in this article) for a week twice a day would help as well as topical gel called Dapis, looks like this. Don't know where you are but grocery stores in canada have a little natural section and sell both.
 

[grassfood]

I'm sorry I do not know anything about lymphangitis. But I would definitely try DMSO on it. DMSO is a powerful anti-inflammatory, will bring down the swelling, and will help with pain. It is not always a "cure" for different ailments, but for some it can definitely be a cure. It cannot hurt her, and is worth a try. I will see if I can find any info on DMSO and specifically lymphangitis. If you are willing to try it, the gel roll on would be the easiest method of application. You can get it at most farm stores, or feed stores. If you can't find the roll on gel, get the gel in a small tub (about $6) and you can apply it with a cotton ball. You can apply it several times a day, and do it every day as necessary.

I hope she feels better soon.

edit: I just looked it up and see that it is caused by bacterial microbes... So in this case, I would definitely spray on colloidal silver before applying the DMSO.  The DMSO will help carry the colloidal silver deeper into her tissues, to kill the bacteria, and the DMSO will help with swelling and pain.

[tassie]

Poor girl, sounds awful. Did you ever find a wound that it may have started from? How old is she now? I think the main things to work on are getting her weight down, strengthening her immune response and promoting good circulation. Supporting the gut too, yes, definitely. Excess weight means excess inflammation, so losing the excess will help minimise it. Was she fat when it happened the first time?

There are heaps of good herbs that will help her immunity but choosing the right one will depend on why she's getting this in the first place and what has happened in her life up to now, genetics etc. Echinacea is readily available and would help both the acute symptoms and be good long term to reduce further risk. Echinacea angustifolia is more effective as it has more of the good chemicals in it, but E. purpurea is most common (just means you need more of it to get a result). It's a lymphatic too which is good (helps clear lymphatic system of crap). Here's a blurb about using it with horses www.naturallyanimals.co.uk/echinacea.html

For treating her at the moment, garlic, echinacea, antimicrobials (ginger is good as it is a circulatory stimulant and may help move things) might help her recover better. Horsechestnut is good for tissue oedema but might be toxic to horses, but might also be OK in a cream to rub in. Dandelion leaves are a mild diuretic and also support liver function - if it's too early for them to be coming up you can get them dried.

Just a few ideas, hope they give you something to go on

[christybell]

I would try the DMSO. I've had good luck with it on cases of swelling. While I've never had this happen to a horse of mine, it did happen to a friends old draft. I think they managed with lots of movement, watching her weight, and lots of massage when it did swell.

[elia]

I will try the DMSO. I have some balm I made from tallow infused with comfrey and calendula, and I have pharmaceutical grade DMSO, which is very pricey, so I wouldn't use much. I will try melting the balm and mixing a little DMSO into it. If it will stay mixed in, I could massage that in. I will try to locate some colloidal silver to put on first, and send off for another bulk order of echinacea (I need to order some other herbs anyway). I can add garlic to the feed that I am giving to get the meds in.

I have been using hay bags in the barn or paddock, which are great for slow grazing, but not so much for walking. I think I will spread the hay out on the track today, if the rain will let up and I can find some non-muddy spots.

She is 14 years old. As to wounds, she has had a small spot of scratches now and then, so I have been suspicious about that. The only other thing she has had in her history was a hoof abscess from a stone bruise, which healed well with treatment.

I am giving between 1 and 2 percent of body weight in hay daily now, trying to reduce her (and her mates). About 1.75, actually, not adjusted for the dry matter basis (which would increase the ration a bit). The three horses share quarters and hay, so I have to just lump their weights all together and figure it that way. She is the alpha mare, so the hay bags also give the others a chance to eat. If it is on the ground, I will have to spread it out quite a bit so she doesn't get more than her share.

[corrae]

elia... I'd give the dandelion a try as well. You can easily get it in powdered form and add a little to a handful of treats, or syringe it down. I think it would help a lot. tassie and Natalia know so much about herbs and homeopathy!

[grassfood]

Mar 1, 2018 10:37:20 GMT -5 elia said:

I will try the DMSO. I have some balm I made from tallow infused with comfrey and calendula, and I have pharmaceutical grade DMSO, which is very pricey, 

Just to put your mind at ease, all DMSO is pharmaceutical grade.  The kind you can buy at Tractor Supply, or Murdochs... is about $6 a quart, and is completely safe for human (ingestion or topical) and for animals (ingestion, udder infusion, or topical)  There is really one DMSO manufacturer in the states and they supply the other companies, which then repackage it to their liking, and market it as they will.  Here in the states it is manufactured only with trees, the lignin, which is why it is called tree juice.  In other parts of the world, it can be made using petroleum products.


www.dmso.com/Catalog.aspx

[corrae]

Great information, grassfood... I didn't know that!

[Natalia]

The more I think about it, the more I believe you have to dig deeper. Something triggers the inflammation, do you see the pattern every 4 months? Is it intervals you usually deworm? Some minerals are high in oil and fats which can be a cause of inflammation. What was summer like, was hay high in starches and sugars when baled? Is she getting any alfalfa or grain?
Bute, antibiotics, chemical wormers all suppress the immune system and lead to leaky gut and release of toxins back to blood stream. And she kind of ends up in a vicious circle, where she tries to illuminate toxins through scratches, hoof abscess and inflammation.
You have to focus on fixing a core of the problem, everything said will give her support but it's only symptomatic approach.

Can you replace bute with White Willow bark I order powdered and would do 2tbsp twice a day. It works as well as bute but so much easier on them.
Antibiotic can be replaced with oil of oregano 5 capsules twice a day for 2 weeks. I have a mare what eats it like candies. She too suffers from leaky gut.
Hold off with worming her until you can get this under control.

You are totally right about focusing to hindgut health. Look for probiotics without yeast as this contributes to yeast bacteria overgrow in hindgut.

This will tell you very much what need it to be done rivasremedies.com/knowledgebase/leaky-gut/

I my self used this lady several time for full consultations to work out a plan for my horses. Both times without her, my horses would not survive the severity of there conditions. May be an option for you as she does on line consultations/work up.

[grassfood]

Yes, corrae I have come across many discussions of DMSO in glass bottles as well, which is a lot more expensive... True, DMSO must never be put in "regular" plastic, but only the grade plastic that can handle it. But there are several distributors, like the pharmaceutical ones, that market their product at a higher, exclusive price.

Well, it turns out, that this main manufacturer makes, stores and ships their wholesale product out to these distributors, in large plastic containers, which are then repackaged in glass.

Wow, Natalia, you are a wealth of great information.

I sure hope your girl is feeling better soon! elia

[corrae]

grassfood... You know SO MUCH as well... All you gals are encyclopedias of information here. I am going to be taking notes! This is a great discussion... and elia, I bet between all of you, your sweet mare is going to be much improved.

[elia]

Wow, you ladies are a wealth of information. I am so glad I asked.

Natalia, where do you get the oil of oregano capsules?

I went out and got the DMSO gel and some liquid, too, just for good measure. (Years ago, I bought a glass bottle of the stuff, which I believed was way better than what they had at Rural King. Oh well, live and learn!)

I've ordered the white willow bark, dandelion, some more echinacea ang., and extra garlic powder. It should be shipped out in tomorrow's mail. I have ginger here, which I will either grate fresh or dehydrate and powder.

I will give DE for worms and dig out my herbal wormer recipe. I had gotten lazy (overworked, more like), and used chemical wormers last year, but this episode is likely to make me break up with the allopaths altogether, except for situations involving trauma. I was headed that direction anyway.

[Natalia]

Thanks guys, If my cow knowledge mostly book based, when it comes to dogs and horses I wish I would never have had the experiences.

Anyhow elia I think even pharmacy would have it in cold/flu section. If not health food stores.

Just to tell you, don't rely  on DE and herbal wormers. I hate DE despite all the internet high about it , that how I got in a pickle with my mare and heavy load of small strongyles. I even took DE my self for a week and all I got is a stomach ache everyday. She most likely had them for a long time before she came to me. To illuminate the baggers  took a series of intensive chemical worming, comparable to chemotherapy I would think. The damage was done  between the worms and killing the worms. I been through so many colics with her I don't have enough fingers to count. Only ones I had to call the vet as I couldn't turn her around with homeopathy. The vet came put the arm in her rectum gave her a shot of bute and mare went to graze.Well, it took you Buddy 3 hours to get to emergency. When he called me back with clear fecal I started to question him, as at that point I knew what I was dealing with. He said, most owners will be happy to know there horse has no worms. The point is he was clueless and didn't know what 90% of the time small strongyles sit inside the cysts and don't show on fecals. It took years to turn her around.

Run fecals on your mare often, may be she does't need to be dewormed at all, know what you dealing with.  May be she only needs it once a year.   

[elia]

Mar 1, 2018 17:47:29 GMT -5 Natalia said:

Thanks guys, If my cow knowledge mostly book based, when it comes to dogs and horses I wish I would never have had the experiences.

Anyhow elia I think even pharmacy would have it in cold/flu section. If not health food stores.

Just to tell you, don't rely  on DE and herbal wormers. I hate DE despite all the internet high about it , that how I got in a pickle with my mare and heavy load of small strongyles. I even took DE my self for a week and all I got is a stomach ache everyday. She most likely had them for a long time before she came to me. To illuminate the baggers  took a series of intensive chemical worming, comparable to chemotherapy I would think. The damage was done  between the worms and killing the worms. I been through so many colics with her I don't have enough fingers to count. Only ones I had to call the vet as I couldn't turn her around with homeopathy. The vet came put the arm in her rectum gave her a shot of bute and mare went to graze.Well, it took you Buddy 3 hours to get to emergency. When he called me back with clear fecal I started to question him, as at that point I knew what I was dealing with. He said, most owners will be happy to know there horse has no worms. The point is he was clueless and didn't know what 90% of the time small strongyles sit inside the cysts and don't show on fecals. It took years to turn her around.

Run fecals on your mare often, may be she does't need to be dewormed at all, know what you dealing with.  May be she only needs it once a year.   

Hmmm... lots to think about.

One question: If the encysted small strongyles don't show up on fecal, how can you tell that they are there, or that they are all cleared away?

[Natalia]

If you use quest wormer wth in 12-24 hours inspect fresh manure closely you will see what comes out. With weather change to warm usuly early spring fecal will show a few eggs if you lucky, but nothing what vet will tell you worth worming.

[Natalia]

Also I stoped seeing them in manure after worming protocol and no more colic.

[elia]

Thanks, Natalia . If I did use a chemical wormer for that, I would do the five-day fenbendazole protocol, not the Quest... my neighbor wormed her mule with Quest and he was dead in 24 hours... don't know why. Vet said it was not connected, but I don't trust it.

[Natalia]

Mar 1, 2018 21:01:49 GMT -5 elia said:

Thanks, Natalia . If I did use a chemical wormer for that, I would do the five-day fenbendazole protocol, not the Quest... my neighbor wormed her mule with Quest and he was dead in 24 hours... don't know why. Vet said it was not connected, but I don't trust it.

I know people do fear Quest but the problem is it has to be administered by weight and this what people don't count on. The protocol I used was developed by local osteopath and involve the use of both  fenbendazole and Quest. If I find it I will scan it. After 3rd round, I think it was 10days or 2 weeks intervals, came out bots. I never ever want to see that again.  And I am the one who goes around pasture  with manure fork all summer, I couldn't believe it. So the use of fenbendazole for 5 days at double dose wasn't enough to bring bots up.

Any of you follow "The Naturally Healthy Horse" on FB. I love her articles. this came up today and very appropriate to the subject.
www.wholeequine.com/blogs/news/slippery-elm-natures-digestion-support

I did use slippery elm and Aloe vera gel a lot after ideal.