cream for butter--are they the same from all cows?

[thystledown]

The Guernsey cream doesn't break easily if at all!  I've been making butter from the Jersey cream for 3 years.  I have even made butter from goat milk run through the separator.  I've messed with the settings on the separator to get heavy cream (still not as heavy apparently as the Jersey cream).  This Guernsey milk will whip, but then with further churning, it disintegrates into a frothy mess.  foam on top of liquid.  It takes forever to whip too, so I've taken the mess and am chilling it again.  I've take two quarts of the straight cream and put them in the freezer to see if that will make them easier to churn after freezing and defrosting.  With the Jersey cream, it whips, then turns to something like cookie dough, then breaks to butter and butter milk.  I'll add pics below.  So I though all cream once separated was essentially the same. There is no separation in the quart jar--no milk underneath cream, or if there is it is less than a quarter inch.  But they sure don't churn the same.  Can anyone explain this?  And even better, recommend what to do?


Guernsey cream disintegrates after the thick whipped stage (whips like a dessert topping first)
after lots of beating/churning it separates into this foamy stuff on top of white liquid like milk, but not butter milk.  Now the quart jar of cream did not have a milk line even after a week, or if it does, it is less than a 1/4 inch.  look closely at this pic and you can see the line of separation between the greasy foam and the "milk".

This is what the Jersey cream did today.  It goes from whipped cream like a dessert topping to this cookie dough stage.  Now this was frozen and defrosted, but it is EXACTLY what her fresh cream does.  This is the same day with the same equipment.

This is the Jersey cream at breaking--butter and buttermilk.  

Ugh!  The Guernsey cream won't make nice thick creme fraiche either.  I know I only have one Guernsey to compare to one Jersey, but I'm thinking Guernsey's are all now bred for show only.  Anybody want a pretty cow that makes lots of fabulous A2/A2 drinking milk and fosters calves easily?  I've got one that needs a new home!

[Kelsey]

I often have trouble making butter in the winter - it takes forever or doesn't want to separate easily. But it could also be that the cows were later in lactation.
These were all Jerseys.

edit - Have you tried culturing the cream first? In the winter, I literally cannot make butter if the cream is not cultured first. Just whips up but never breaks.
What do you mean when you say the creme fraiche doesn't work either?

[Kelsey]

Have you tried adjusting the screw to make the cream thicker?
I think that the same proportions of milk/cream come out at each setting, no matter the butterfat %. So at a specific setting, you'll always get 10% cream and 90% skim, for example. But if the milk from one cow has a lower butterfat %, that portion of cream will be more dilute (say, 30% bf vs 40%). And that will make a big difference in your ability to successfully churn butter.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how the centrifugal separators work.

[thystledown]

We have adjusted the screw--tried several different settings and I think I'm at max for heavy cream. So disappointed. Her production keeps climbing. I'm up to 4 gallons OAD with 2 big calves on her days. But now the cream won't churn. So probably it is all water content and not components? And maybe the separator can't get it any thicker. Hmmmm.

[Kelsey]

How about sending in a sample to DHIA for components?
How much cream are you getting per gallon?

[rosalind]

Different breeds have different types of fat. I would think Guernsey would be somewhat similar to Jersey, but I may be wrong.

I believe Jerseys have the largest fat globules, so their fat rises faster (you see a cream line quickly) and churns faster. But the large globule also may uptake off flavors easier and can be a softer butter.

I'll try to find my reference for this to share with you.

(Oh, and could very well just be stage of lactation or seasonal or something like that, too).

[rosalind]

Ok, so my book says Jersey and Guernsey have the largest fat globules (but with the way Guernseys have been bred the past 40 years, perhaps this has changed some?)
Issue can be resolved by using a cream separator. (I bet freezing will help you, too!)

Also:
"Cream with large fat globules churns with less agitation than that in which the smaller globules predominate." "During the first part of the lactation period, the fat globules are relatively large while as the lactation period progresses the globules become smaller."

"milk fat of the milk of Jerseys contains fat higher in the volatile acids thank the milk fat of Holstein, Ayrshire, or Shorthorn...those breeds have higher oleic acid than Jersey milk. The melting point of the fat produced by Holsteins and Ayrshires is, therefore, lower than that of Jerseys. Butter produced by Jersey cows may be expected o be firmer than that produced from other dairy breeds." (Possible solution: Lower temperature at churning for Guernsey milk than you would for Jersey milk. Perhaps add a few ice or frozen cream cubes to cream at time of churning? Assume from the above quotes that Guernsey milk is somewhere between the two extremes of Jersey and Holstein.)

[treatlisa]

Oh, thystledown - our Guernseys sound like they could be sisters... My big girl has inferior cream also - compared to every jersey I have had. I will say that I like her milk for cheese better and possibly for drinking (although I don't actually drink much milk). It stays more white without going all blue like my jersey girls would. The cream is definitely different from my limited experience. It takes much longer to churn.

I had better luck after her calf was gone. I get a small layer of thicker cream on top of a lot of 'coffee cream'. In other words, I am getting near the same amount of total cream as my jerseys but there is only a very thin layer of thicker, what I would consider, butter cream. Jersey girls all had a deep thick layer of butter cream and thinner layer of coffee cream.

It really has been an adventure here. I have decided to keep my girl for the time being, she has lots of great qualities - but it is NOT for the butter! Hehe...

I wonder if your girl is holding up the best part of the cream for the calves?

[kim'scows]

Since you are comparing the difference between cows it probably is the cow, but how old is the cream you are trying to churn? Less than 12 hours out of the cow, or more than several days old can cause it not to break.

[throwback]

Besides all the similarities between a Guernsey and Jersey, how a heifer is raised feed-wise makes all the difference in rumen function which is directly related to butterfat production. It doesn't change the fact that you're unhappy with her cream production, but it may be just a product of being weaned off of milk early, or low milk feeding amounts, then the switch to calf starter. So hard to know exactly how a heifer was fed when you buy her as a cow.

I think you should sell her, keeping a family cow is hard work, and if you're continually disappointed in the cow she should move on.

[thystledown]

Mar 1, 2018 9:38:32 GMT -5 throwback said:

Besides all the similarities between a Guernsey and Jersey, how a heifer is raised feed-wise makes all the difference in rumen function which is directly related to butterfat production. It doesn't change the fact that you're unhappy with her cream production, but it may be just a product of being weaned off of milk early, or low milk feeding amounts, then the switch to calf starter. So hard to know exactly how a heifer was fed when you buy her as a cow.

I think you should sell her, keeping a family cow is hard work, and if you're continually disappointed in the cow she should move on.

That is very interesting!  Heiferlump the Jersey did breed back and will have her calf in September Lord willing.  So I think I will try to sell the Guernsey.  I just don't want her to go for hamburger.  She's really a nice cow in so many ways.  She needs a big family that wants to drink a lot of milk.  She produces super fantastic milk and lots of it with a fantastic udder.  And as for foster calves--the one I got was trying to nurse at her brisket and she just scooped him up with her head and deposited him back by her udder--very gently. This cow has so much going for her that I really want to like her.  However, I am certainly getting an education in things I never knew before. I love that!!  I would never have known had I not bought this cow. Anyway, Hubby says there is a bit more adjustment in the separator.  I am trying freezing the cream first.  I will persevere.  And even though she makes less cheese per gallon of milk, she gives so many more gallons that I actually make a lot more cheese.  

[thystledown]

Mar 1, 2018 0:07:21 GMT -5 treatlisa said:

Oh, thystledown - our Guernseys sound like they could be sisters... My big girl has inferior cream also - compared to every jersey I have had. I will say that I like her milk for cheese better and possibly for drinking (although I don't actually drink much milk). It stays more white without going all blue like my jersey girls would. The cream is definitely different from my limited experience. It takes much longer to churn.

I had better luck after her calf was gone. I get a small layer of thicker cream on top of a lot of 'coffee cream'. In other words, I am getting near the same amount of total cream as my jerseys but there is only a very thin layer of thicker, what I would consider, butter cream. Jersey girls all had a deep thick layer of butter cream and thinner layer of coffee cream.

It really has been an adventure here. I have decided to keep my girl for the time being, she has lots of great qualities - but it is NOT for the butter! Hehe...

I wonder if your girl is holding up the best part of the cream for the calves?

That is comforting.  This cow does not hold up as long as she has grain in front of her.  If I take too long cleaning her up to milk  (she's in a box stall rather than a stanchion because she cast herself in the stanchion, so can get dirty), then as soon as the grain is gone, the milk stops and I know I won't bother running the separator.  That happened today and I got a gallon less than I should have and the calves were very happy.  But usually she's so happy about her grain she milks like a dream.  Starts leaking milk when I put her in the stanchion. She milks out like a deflated balloon and the calves are very cranky. I leave her for almost an hour after milking before I put the calves with her.

[thystledown]

Feb 28, 2018 21:31:04 GMT -5 rosalind said:

Ok, so my book says Jersey and Guernsey have the largest fat globules (but with the way Guernseys have been bred the past 40 years, perhaps this has changed some?)
Issue can be resolved by using a cream separator. (I bet freezing will help you, too!)

Also:
"Cream with large fat globules churns with less agitation than that in which the smaller globules predominate." "During the first part of the lactation period, the fat globules are relatively large while as the lactation period progresses the globules become smaller."

"milk fat of the milk of Jerseys contains fat higher in the volatile acids thank the milk fat of Holstein, Ayrshire, or Shorthorn...those breeds have higher oleic acid than Jersey milk. The melting point of the fat produced by Holsteins and Ayrshires is, therefore, lower than that of Jerseys. Butter produced by Jersey cows may be expected o be firmer than that produced from other dairy breeds." (Possible solution: Lower temperature at churning for Guernsey milk than you would for Jersey milk. Perhaps add a few ice or frozen cream cubes to cream at time of churning? Assume from the above quotes that Guernsey milk is somewhere between the two extremes of Jersey and Holstein.)

Great info!  Who knew?!  I have so much to learn.  But it is fascinating.

[Kelsey]

Mar 1, 2018 10:31:11 GMT -5 thystledown said:

That is comforting.  This cow does not hold up as long as she has grain in front of her.  If I take too long cleaning her up to milk  (she's in a box stall rather than a stanchion because she cast herself in the stanchion, so can get dirty), then as soon as the grain is gone, the milk stops and I know I won't bother running the separator.  That happened today and I got a gallon less than I should have and the calves were very happy.  But usually she's so happy about her grain she milks like a dream.  Starts leaking milk when I put her in the stanchion. She milks out like a deflated balloon and the calves are very cranky. I leave her for almost an hour after milking before I put the calves with her.

My Jersey was like this too, the year she got to raise her calf. Let down really well each time (3-4 gallons per milking, 2x daily) and I got a decent amount of cream (several inches on a bottle). But her butterfat % was still not quite as high as when I used the calf for letdown first, or in the years she wasn't raising a calf. I think all cows hold up some cream when they have calves nursing, even if it doesn't seem obvious.

[kim'scows]

Oh, yes, we got way less cream when we were letting the cows raise the calves!

[thystledown]

Mar 1, 2018 14:03:30 GMT -5 kim'scows said:

Oh, yes, we got way less cream when we were letting the cows raise the calves!

That may be.  But all my cows calf share so I am comparing apples to apples.  I'm not comparing a calf share Guernsey to a no-calf Jersey.  I don't bottle raise calves.  I don't milk cows that don't have at least one calf.  When the calf is weaned or sold, I dry off the cow.  so usually that means I'm milking in June with no calf, but drying off a cow that freshened in September.  (I take summers off and turn everyone out on pastures with the beefers). And the cream I do get is coming out of a separator.  There may be less, but the nature/properties of it should be consistent.