Maggie has diarrhea??

[bluebar23]

We got Maggie (MS heifer due Feb 16th) in mid Sept. She had always been grass fed only. I have been feeding her grass hay with intermittent pasture (due to fencing issues). In early Oct I started her on grain as a training device. We went very slowly, literally a handful at a time, til she was up to 1 lb TAD (of calf starter, as that is the grain I had on hand for the bottle calf).

The past Wed I was out of calf starter. Feed store didn’t have it, so I bought a (very similar) bag of general sweet feed, 16% protein (calf starter had been 18%). I also bought a bag of clean whole oats.

Wednesday night I started feeding Maggie 1 lb sweet feed mixed with 2 lbs whole oats. She ate that (in its entirety) that night and the following morning. That day, Thursday, I put her out in a new section of pasture. She was out for about 5 hrs.

(I should say, now that I type it out, tripling her grain all at once seems stupid... although 3 lbs total still doesn't seem like all that much for a 2yo heifer, I don't think? I did it because I want to increase her grain intake as it gets colder and she gets closer to freshening, and I want to move her from sweet feed to oats/barley.)

When I went to bring Maggie in, she wouldn’t come to the grain bucket. This is not super unusual; I am still training her, and coming in from the field has been a sticking point. It took me about 15 min to get her close enough to the feed bucket in my one hand to grab her lead with my other hand.

But when I put her in her stall, she wouldn’t touch her grain. This has NEVER happened before. I chalked it up to her being miffed about baiting her with it. The next morning, Friday, she wouldn’t touch her (fresh batch) of grain again. I noticed that day she was developing diarrhea. She wouldn’t eat grain again that night.

The next day (yesterday, Sat) I mixed her up 1 lb sweet feed to 1 lb whole oats, and she ate most of it. She ate that same mix last night and this morning. This whole time she has been eating hay, but (it seems to me) not as much as she should be. I’ve kept her off pasture because of her runs, but the goats and calf have been out there since, and no issues for them. Calf is also eating same sweet feed & oats (with fewer oats tho) and she is perfectly fine, normal poo.

I did also start feeding a new batch of hay on Tuesday. Same hay guy, he said it was same grass hay, but many of the bales look different to me; some of it is really really fine grass, and I see a lot of clover. The first bale made the cows drool a lot (??) so I fed the rest of that to the goats. But I’ve been feeding both cows and the goats out of the same bales since, and no one else shows any symptoms. Everyone also has vitalix tubs for mineral.

Maggie’s diarrhea is viscous, smells only slightly off, and is a greenish brown. It is not foamy or bloody. However, this morning she had a bloody nose... I have no idea if that’s a coincidence or could be related?? She is otherwise acting normally, there is just poop EVERYWHERE.

I’m sorry for such a long post, I just don’t know what might be relevant. This is the first time she’s been sick so I’m kind of freaking out. I can call the vet tomorrow if I need to; I just kept thinking it would get better, and instead it seems to be getting worse. Sorry to be gross, but here are some pics:

[SebFarm]

What's her temp? Is she drinking normally?

[bluebar23]

Nov 26, 2017 10:57:48 GMT -5 SebFarm said:

What's her temp? Is she drinking normally?

She is drinking totally normally. I'm still trying to find a thermometer to get an accurate temp... may have to go buy one.

[Meadow Creek Mama]

Uugh, I'm sorry. I have no real advice, just hoping she gets better quick. At least in the picture her overall condition looks good so she's got that going for her. She looks hungry but that could be expected with nasty poos. That's crazy about the bloody nose, I've never heard of that.

I've seen people recommend plain hay when their bodies act up like that. I'd think go low protein since protein makes their poos looser. Do you have access to barley or other grain hay? (I think some people call it straw, but it's not the bedding kind). It's super palatable and tends to bind them up a bit. We mix it with hay and alfalfa.

[bluebar23]

Nov 26, 2017 12:01:16 GMT -5 Meadow Creek Mama said:

I've seen people recommend plain hay when their bodies act up like that. I'd think go low protein since protein makes their poos looser. Do you have access to barley or other grain hay? (I think some people call it straw, but it's not the bedding kind). It's super palatable and tends to bind them up a bit. We mix it with hay and alfalfa.

Hmm, I don't think so... I had a hard enough time just finding regular hay!   But I can definitely stop feeding her grain, at least. I do have some bales of alfalfa and alfalfa/grass mix that I put up for winter; I haven't started feeding it to anyone yet, but can do.

[Meadow Creek Mama]

Nov 26, 2017 12:41:22 GMT -5 bluebar23 said:

Nov 26, 2017 12:01:16 GMT -5 Meadow Creek Mama said:

I've seen people recommend plain hay when their bodies act up like that. I'd think go low protein since protein makes their poos looser. Do you have access to barley or other grain hay? (I think some people call it straw, but it's not the bedding kind). It's super palatable and tends to bind them up a bit. We mix it with hay and alfalfa.

Hmm, I don't think so... I had a hard enough time just finding regular hay! :-/  But I can definitely stop feeding her grain, at least. I do have some bales of alfalfa and alfalfa/grass mix that I put up for winter; I haven't started feeding it to anyone yet, but can do.

I'd give as little alfalfa as possible until she's not as loose, if you can.  Alfalfa makes my cows poos way softer and you don't need that right now.  As plain of just grass as you can would probably be best right now.  

[Kelsey]

The comment about the bale of hay making the cows drool was interesting...
What type of grass hay is it? Are there any weeds in it? There are a number of toxic weeds that can grow in unmaintained hay fields that can make cows moderately to severely ill - and even kill them (tansy ragwort). Cows would never eat these weeds out in the pasture, but when they're dried and combined with good hay, the cows can't sort easily. And often the dried form is more palatable yet more toxic than fresh.

Might want to check with your hay guy and see what's up...

[bluebar23]

Nov 26, 2017 13:47:06 GMT -5 Kelsey said:

The comment about the bale of hay making the cows drool was interesting...
What type of grass hay is it? Are there any weeds in it? There are a number of toxic weeds that can grow in unmaintained hay fields that can make cows moderately to severely ill - and even kill them (tansy ragwort). Cows would never eat these weeds out in the pasture, but when they're dried and combined with good hay, the cows can't sort easily. And often the dried form is more palatable yet more toxic than fresh.

Might want to check with your hay guy and see what's up...

Yikes!!! I will definitely do that... there are some weeds in some of the bales, but I don't know much about hay or assessing its quality. I will have to do some research.

[jerseyrose]

My heifer went through this just recently due to a bale with a lot of clover in it. Messy manure, messy tail and back end too. I think it is probably due to totally different grain and the amount you upped it. My girl didn't refuse to eat her grain though, but I keep a pan of baking soda available for any stomach upset.

I am now on a bale that is all grass and she is back to normal. Even when you cut and bale your own it can be difficult. 2 years back we broadcast clover into our hay fields and got several huge rains which seemed to make it all glob together, so now I have bales abundant in clover, some just right and some without. It makes every new bale I open an adventure.

Kelsey My cow will drool while I am putting grain into the feed pans, but I am guessing it isn't the same as bluebar23 is experiencing.

[Kelsey]

All cows drool a bit but anything noticeably different demands a closer look. Some are just really sloppy cud chewers!

[mommasquilts]

Has she been eating a bunch of apples like your new AGH’s are?

[bluebar23]

Nov 26, 2017 16:14:43 GMT -5 mommasquilts said:

Has she been eating a bunch of apples like your new AGH’s are?

Good question, but no! She does love apples, but I feed them to her sparingly, and she hasn't had any in a couple weeks.

The drooling was really pronounced (in both cows; even DH noticed it), and seemed pretty clearly related to that one bale.

I will start by cutting out grain and feeding the most straight-grass bales I can find for a couple of days and see if she improves. At least she is acting normally. I will offer her some baking soda, too.

[bluebar23]

Just fed for the evening. Much the same, but even more liquidy. Was able to find at least one bale that was good and grassy, the one on the right (left is what most others look like):

Maggie at least seems to have a good appetite and really chowed down on the good bale. Gave me a lot of stink-eye about no grain tho.

[heidialpine]

Yuck! I would not doubt that hay has some bad weeds in it.

[bluebar23]

What do I do? Is this just bad-on-me for buying crappy hay? I was happy with the first round I bought from this guy, I trusted him when he said it was the same stuff. I’d hate to think he did this intentionally, but I’m really screwed over if I’m stuck with 75 bales of weeds. The goats don’t seem to mind it and I can probably feed most of it to them, but some of it was slated for the cows.

I guess once Maggie’s stomach settles I’ll get her started on the grass/alfalfa mix and straight alfalfa bales. I’ll start feeding the worst looking grass/weed bales to the goats, and set aside the better looking ones. Decent grass bales can go to the calf. I’ll just have to see how far that gets me.

So frustrating! I guess a good hay guy is worth his weight in gold. We’re in a tight place, only equipped to handle small bales and with no way to haul ourselves.

[Applelonia]

We are in a similar state - barn is only big enough for a certain amount of square bales and we have no way to transport hay. We bought close to $2000 worth of certified organic alfalfa/grass hay - 250 bales. I was assured it would be prime hay - would not mold. Bale after bale is molding. And the man who said he’d stand behind every bale brought 50 bales of replacement hay and said that should more than cover it. The replacement hay looks very much like the hay you have in the left of the picture. Ours has lots of clover, weeds and various leaves. It’s dusty so I can’t even use it for bedding. The cows don’t like it. After the calves ate it they got diarrhea...not sure if that was happenstance, or if it bothered them. I’ve found some good hay guys, but they don’t deliver. It is VERY frustrating to deal with bad hay, less than honest hay men, and the limitations to personally be able haul hay.

[jerseyrose]

Nov 26, 2017 17:58:35 GMT -5 bluebar23 said:

Just fed for the evening. Much the same, but even more liquidy. Was able to find at least one bale that was good and grassy, the one on the right (left is what most others look like):

Maggie at least seems to have a good appetite and really chowed down on the good bale. Gave me a lot of stink-eye about no grain tho.

Clover is known to turn brown once cut, cured and baled.I don't see weeds I see thick clover stems. It has no bearing on quality. I have some bales that are green and some where the clover is brownish too. Every hay consuming animal I have inhales every single morsel. Your bale looks fine, but clover is quite rich and that is why your cow is having loose manure. Mixing the 2 would be a good idea or filling her up on the grass hay and then offering the bales with a heavy clover load a little at a time.

[bluebar23]

Nov 27, 2017 14:33:11 GMT -5 jerseyrose said:

Clover is known to turn brown once cut, cured and baled.I don't see weeds I see thick clover stems. It has no bearing on quality. I have some bales that are green and some where the clover is brownish too. Every hay consuming animal I have inhales every single morsel. Your bale looks fine, but clover is quite rich and that is why your cow is having loose manure. Mixing the 2 would be a good idea or filling her up on the grass hay and then offering the bales with a heavy clover load a little at a time.

THANK YOU!! I could recognize clover in the bales but I couldn't figure out why some was brown and some was green, so I thought maybe there was something else going on. But the goats do go crazy for it!

After feeding her a definitely-all-grass bale for a day (and giving her some baking soda) I do think we're starting to look a little better, although still very much diarrhea.

The bale that made both cows drool excessively did have clover in it, but that one did look like it had other stuff too... some of the bales are really full of what looks like a kind of grass but is really fine.

Who knew feeding was so HARD    I am learning!! But man, picking two wheelbarrow fulls of diarrhea out of her stall twice a day is harsh...

[lew92]

She may have winter dysentery, too, which is a quite common "stomach flu" that cattle get. It takes some time - up to two weeks - but it will pass. In all likelihood, the manure will get worse before it gets better, sorry to say.

I think that is a much more likely scenario than it being the fault of the hay. Keep on giving her mostly grass hay, though, and avoid grain until she is back to normal. Though you could give her some soaked beet pulp as a treat to make her more happy.

And yes, it is contagious to other cows, so you might want to keep her away from the others you have.

[bluebar23]

Thank you, lew92! She is kept separate from the other heifer anyway, at least, so that's not so tough. I have still been giving her one tiny handful of grain at each feeding, because it is the ONLY way I can get her head in the stanchion (she just pulls the hay out to eat it) and I don't want to break our routine of getting locked in and handled at least twice daily. But I can try switching to soaked beet pulp.