wagyu

[nina]

I've been going to wagyu functions and playing around with doing a side business.  Wagyu locally is selling for average for $40 a lb for all cuts and say near bigger metropolitan areas for $55.  I would either be selling embryos or steers, but just for now I want to start up a small herd.  At today's meeting I met a guy who will sell me a young pure registered heifer for $4000 that is the daughter from a cow that flushed a phenomenal 55 embryos.  The largest number all the breeders had in a flush.  I think average is around 10.  He also will give me embryos to implant in my own cows in December, which will cost me $300 each in vet bills, the catch is he will get half of those calves at weaning so I'm fronting all the costs and risks raising them.    The last option would be to go with  semen and F1 cows, and keep breeding back to get high percentage wagyu.  I did find out the buyers don't pay much attention to percentages and give the same lowered price.   Any ideas which way I should pursue this would be appreciated.  Talking DH into $4000 might be harder for one cow than $3,600 for possible 6 calves if I get 12 cows settled.  Though if I buy a weaned heifer I'm not to far off from flushing my own.  Percentage breeding would be the cheapest up front but would take several generations to start getting somewhere though there is a market for F1s.  I have maybe 14 surrogates available in December.  

[eon69nc]

Peronally I would develop an upgrade plan starting with basic beef cow. I am not a fan on raising calves for someone else to just take. At that rate, he should be giving you the embryos. Just my opinion but cheapest is upgrading and F1 is not a bad start.

[MaggieGal]

Yikes! That's alot of $$.

I don't know anything about Wagyu. My first thought was, is this a fad that's gonna die out? How long has those prices been that high? How would you need to market the beef to obtain the premium price? Are they a hardy breed and if there wouldn't be a bull involved, is semen readily available? Do they have any genetic issues that may be concerning?

I would consider starting with purebred and then do a few crossbreeds. The purebred may be able to bring in more money which would help fund the others until their percentages were higher.

I don't like giving ppl off spring after doing all the work to raise them and keep them healthy. Plus, he would probably chose the best of the weaned calves.

[saysfaa]

Is it half of the calves weaned or is it six calves at weaning for 12 embryos to implant? I wouldn't do the second; I might do the first if you can alternate picks of the calves. I wouldn't do it if he is to pick any six he wants. I might also want to flip a coin or something to determine who gets the heifer if there is only one.

My second choice would be the purebred heifer for $4000. (Assuming I was gambling spending money rather than the farm, so it speak)

I'd consider those over the breeding up plan because the price for the meat will be way down by the time you have enough generations to be able to market it without the lower price for being a percentage. You can see this because "there is a market for F1s" - that would be the other people in your shoes who will get there about the same time you do. I can't see the demand keeping up with supply for very long.

I think your costs will be higher than $3600, though... you also won't get the calves those cows would otherwise carry.

[Deleted]

Be very careful. My family got mixed in with the wagyu hype. $10k bull, check. 20% calf crop as a 2 year old, check. 35% as a 3 year old. Sold him for $6k with full disclosure on his low fertility. This bull was used over a really nice herd of 4-8 year old registered angus. Look into how long it takes the higher percentage wagyus to finish. 400 or more days on feed is typical for Japanese style kobe. If you don't have the name in the cattle business already, seed stock is an uphill battle. We didn't get many steers unfortunately, so I still have yet to eat any of this meat. The heifers are too 'valuable' to eat. I'm not impressed at all so far.

[simplynaturalfarm]

What you are seeing is the price it can sell for. . not how much is being sold. How many times do we see something high dollar and say "Man I should sell - blank" and later find out the producer sells 100lbs a year because the market is so niche and nobody buys it.

My husband was taken out for wagyu beef last year at a high dollar restaurant for the best cuts, and said it was tender and tasteless. People who pay that much are paying for a hype and made money when it started. Right now, it is not getting stronger market wise. It is NOT Kobe beef. .

If you already sell beef and are sold on it, just use semen and you will have half breeds. Are you hoping to sell on craigslist or high dollar restaurants? Because it won't sell for $40 by the side, and to restaurants is horrific - I have too many grassfed friends whose high dollar restaurants owe them thousands and can never collect. Restaurants and chefs are the worst payers on the planet and have the highest expectations.

In the states surrounding us, they are selling it for prices similar to store bought angus. You can buy it by the half for $7.50 lb and that is for 100% wagyu. . . . I see bulls selling for $2000 here.

If you need to sell at auction for some reason, they do not sell well as they do not have the bulk. At least around here they sure do not sell at auction!

Are you up on the genetic disorders? the bloodlines? People who succeed are all about those things - sometimes when you are working with a clique product it takes money to make money . . . .

[simplynaturalfarm]

Here are heavy bred 3 in 1 pairs for $4500 - calf at side and bred back cows. Much better deal than $4000 for an unbred heifer!
lubbock.craigslist.org/grq/6180729798.html

Or how wagyu/angus heifers and steers for $650 each - you can buy a heap of heifers with that $4000. .
dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/grd/6121104203.html

Or if you want to pay a bit more for some mighty fine looking crosses, they are $1100 a piece
easttexas.craigslist.org/grd/6171899929.html

If you think you can get $40 lb, here are some already finished to 16 months for $15-1700
dallas.craigslist.org/dal/grd/6118567917.html

Very few people are getting the high dollars for even purebreds. $25 will get you a straw of semen. $2000 will get you a bull to do the work for you

[marseydoats]

The only thing I know about wagyu is that the exotic animal park has 2 steers that somebody GAVE them. They are very friendly and I petted them and fed them bread. If they were worth that kind of money for meat, I don't think they would be there.

[jerseyrose]

My aunt out in CA was quoted a price of $ 850 for a certain cut she was looking at ( I can't remember what) ( maybe having to do with prime rib) at Easter . She is extremely wealthy and even she passed it up and went to Costco instead!!.

I would make sure you have a market for it before you shell out the bucks.

[Debbie Lincoln]

We raised Simmentals for 20+ years and started AI-ing cross bred baldies to Simmental Bulls to get half-breeds (which were registerable back then). We bred up yearly and eventually purchased some Fullbloods from reputable breeders we had gotten to know well in the course of several years. THEN we did the ET work. I am SO GLAD we did not jump in the deep end up front because we had no idea where we were headed or what our goals were. Those first early years were on a huge learning curve and had we bought into the fullbloods at first, we would have risked losing our shirts.

Start slow and don't go into debt raising animals.

[nina]

Jun 17, 2017 21:27:57 GMT -5 MaggieGal said:

Yikes! That's alot of $$.

I don't know anything about Wagyu. My first thought was, is this a fad that's gonna die out? How long has those prices been that high? How would you need to market the beef to obtain the premium price? Are they a hardy breed and if there wouldn't be a bull involved, is semen readily available? Do they have any genetic issues that may be concerning?

I would consider starting with purebred and then do a few crossbreeds. The purebred may be able to bring in more money which would help fund the others until their percentages were higher.

I don't like giving ppl off spring after doing all the work to raise them and keep them healthy. Plus, he would probably chose the best of the weaned calves.

I've been watching wagyu for some time now and I don't think it is a fad.  I had a dinner party with wagyu steaks and was told it was the best steak everyone had tasted.  I'm hooked because the first meeting I went to a farm where I looked at the cows and had the most delicious hamburgers ever.  It's a combination of the fine lacing of fat and the type of fat.  You know how scientic and scary some of the milk reports are wagyu are the same.  I really want to experiment with crossing wagyu with jerseys.  I don't think they have genetic problems and seem to a calm easy to manage cow.  They do have horns.  There are two color types black, (which is more dark brown, not a true black, and red)  The reds I've heard are more nervous, but other breeders say they are great. 

[nina]

Jun 18, 2017 13:40:54 GMT -5 jerseyrose said:

My aunt out in CA was quoted a price of $ 850 for a certain cut she was looking at ( I can't remember what) ( maybe having to do with prime rib) at Easter . She is extremely wealthy and even she passed it up and went to Costco instead!!.

I would make sure you have a market for it before you shell out the bucks.

Upfront a guy will give $1,500 for 4 month old calves.   A friend of mine is doing very well marketing his wagyu directly to a local supermarket.

[nina]

Jun 18, 2017 7:17:30 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

The only thing I know about wagyu is that the exotic animal park has 2 steers that somebody GAVE them. They are very friendly and I petted them and fed them bread. If they were worth that kind of money for meat, I don't think they would be there.

Are you sure they were wagyu, not zebu??   People fall in love with their animals and don't always sell them for their intended use.  I'm personally not practical with my friendly cows and tend to keep them over more economically sensible but unfriendly cows.   Wagyus are know for being docile and calm so I could see someone not wanting a steer to go to slaughter,  but I would think it would be a very rare bird that would give a wagyu to a pet park.  They are big cows.  

[nina]

Jun 17, 2017 22:58:33 GMT -5 simplynaturalfarm said:

Here are heavy bred 3 in 1 pairs for $4500 - calf at side and bred back cows. Much better deal than $4000 for an unbred heifer!
lubbock.craigslist.org/grq/6180729798.html

Or how wagyu/angus heifers and steers for $650 each - you can buy a heap of heifers with that $4000. .
dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/grd/6121104203.html

Or if you want to pay a bit more for some mighty fine looking crosses, they are $1100 a piece
easttexas.craigslist.org/grd/6171899929.html

If you think you can get $40 lb, here are some already finished to 16 months for $15-1700
dallas.craigslist.org/dal/grd/6118567917.html

Very few people are getting the high dollars for even purebreds. $25 will get you a straw of semen. $2000 will get you a bull to do the work for you

I read through most of those ads, and the purebred are not registered and selling as commercial.  With the embryos I would be getting registered stock as well as the registered heifer.  I'm thinking in terms of my foundation stock starting off with the highest quality.  I can find F1 or commercial for $1,500 to $2,000 in Alabama as well.  The registered heifer would be coming from a mother that flushed 55 embryos and the embryos I would put in my surrogate cows would be from the same mother.  The mother has a detailed performance record.  With wagyu I think it's more important to be registered when trying to sell as meat buyers are going to be wary of spending big bucks on commerical cows or percentages.  

[marseydoats]

The tour guide said they were wagyu,but anything is possible. They were huge. Not as big as the Holstein steer they have, who supposedly weighed 1400 pounds when his "Mommy" donated him because she couldn't manage him anymore ---- but really big.
Most of their animals were given to them or they were confiscated by the humane society or law enforcement who then gave them to the park.

[nina]

Jun 17, 2017 22:11:38 GMT -5 saysfaa said:

Is it half of the calves weaned or is it six calves at weaning for 12 embryos to implant? I wouldn't do the second; I might do the first if you can alternate picks of the calves. I wouldn't do it if he is to pick any six he wants. I might also want to flip a coin or something to determine who gets the heifer if there is only one.

My second choice would be the purebred heifer for $4000. (Assuming I was gambling spending money rather than the farm, so it speak)

I'd consider those over the breeding up plan because the price for the meat will be way down by the time you have enough generations to be able to market it without the lower price for being a percentage. You can see this because "there is a market for F1s" - that would be the other people in your shoes who will get there about the same time you do. I can't see the demand keeping up with supply for very long.

I think your costs will be higher than $3600, though... you also won't get the calves those cows would otherwise carry.

It would be half of the living calves.  With 14 cows hopefully at least 12 would take.  The seller said I could pick.  All the calves would have potential for great stats and he would make money without having to do much since he is already in the business of flushing embryos.  It would be sexed semen so they would most likely be heifers.   The costs initially would be much higher, but gradually I could start getting much more.  Right now I have a bunch of cross bred cows and a couple of beefmasters and milk cows.  I want to experiment with crossing wagyu with jerseys as I think this is a great opportunity for bringing up the value of jersey calves.  

[nina]

Jun 17, 2017 22:48:56 GMT -5 simplynaturalfarm said:

What you are seeing is the price it can sell for. . not how much is being sold. How many times do we see something high dollar and say "Man I should sell - blank" and later find out the producer sells 100lbs a year because the market is so niche and nobody buys it.

My husband was taken out for wagyu beef last year at a high dollar restaurant for the best cuts, and said it was tender and tasteless. People who pay that much are paying for a hype and made money when it started. Right now, it is not getting stronger market wise. It is NOT Kobe beef. .

If you already sell beef and are sold on it, just use semen and you will have half breeds. Are you hoping to sell on craigslist or high dollar restaurants? Because it won't sell for $40 by the side, and to restaurants is horrific - I have too many grassfed friends whose high dollar restaurants owe them thousands and can never collect. Restaurants and chefs are the worst payers on the planet and have the highest expectations.

In the states surrounding us, they are selling it for prices similar to store bought angus. You can buy it by the half for $7.50 lb and that is for 100% wagyu. . . . I see bulls selling for $2000 here.

If you need to sell at auction for some reason, they do not sell well as they do not have the bulk. At least around here they sure do not sell at auction!

Are you up on the genetic disorders? the bloodlines? People who succeed are all about those things - sometimes when you are working with a clique product it takes money to make money . . . .

I've watched fad come and go, like the Greenfire chicken imports going for astronomical prices only to crash a few years down the road when whatever new "in" breed saturates the market.  Like ayam cemani or chocolate orps.  My interest in wagyu is from trying the beef multiple times, though not from a restuarant.  I'm going to wagyu club meetings and eating their beef right off the grill, and it's heavenly delicious.  I have not tried restaurant wagyu.   

[nina]

OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 16, 2017 • LOUISVILLE, KY Go to the North American International Livestock Expo There will be a wagyu booth. I believe they will have tastings.

[simplynaturalfarm]

was it really 55 high quality embryos?? My husband works with the embryo specialists, and that is pretty phenomenal and close to the record. The average is 6-7 high quality embryos. Yes you can get a lot of lower grade ones in a flush, and he has flushed as many as 15-18, but 55 seems like more than a stretch . Also, when we flush, while a dam can give us 15 good embryos, she can then flush zero good embryos the next time and we have seen many daughters flush zero. So you can't guarantee that because one cow flushed, anything related to her will flush well. Heifers are not good for flushing due to lower quantities and how sensitive they are to the drugs, so you would maybe not want to put that kind of money into the heifer and instead let her have a calf or two before flushing.

You talked of doing semen on your cows, so I assumed you were in the market for crossbreds. It sounds like you have narrowed down what you want to do - good registered stock. Doing it with crossbreds will take you 5 generations (if they even allow breeding up), and that still will be half bull calves, culling poor heifers etc, so probably faster to start with a good heifer or two.

And just a side - you will not get 12 out of 14 pregnant. With fresh Embryo transfer you have as high as 60-65% take. With frozen it easily drops to 50%. Embryo transfer for the seedstock producers who flush their own and put high quality embryos into other cull cows is a very lucrative thing. For others who are paying for the procedure and hundreds for the embryos (or even thousands!), it turns into a lot of money very quickly.

So, $300 per cow x 14 cows is $4200. If half of them take that is 7. Then you keep 3-4. Assuming nothing happens and you get 7 to weaning age. I don't know what your cost to feed your cows for 15 months is, but for me that would be $400 ish per cow. $400x 7 = $2800. Then If 7 of the cows don't take, you will know in a month or two after implanting. So then you will have to re AI or put then with a bull and lose 3 months breeding. So 7 x$100 is another $700.

At my dollars to feed, that is $4200 for vet costs, $2800 for feeding 7 that are pregnant and $700 lost on the 7 that have to be re aie'ed. That is $7700 for 3.5 calves. If registered heifers are $4000 and NOT $2500, that is a good deal. It doesn't take long to lose the benefit, but there is a benefit to it.

I just don't know where the market is unless you are a top notch sales person. And I would be sure to have a lawyer review your contract and have everything in writing. Good luck!

[Debbie Lincoln]

My AI tech works for a huge dairy and last year they AI-ed most of their cows with Wagyu and had a contract for the calves before they were born. I do not know any other details, but evidently it was pretty lucrative. I will ask her how that deal turned out....