Kickin plus attitude

[victoria]

Most of this is copy and pasted from my other thread but i thought i might get more suggestions if i started a new thread. As you all know this is my first cow...she is a first time heifer that is sharemilking with a brown swiss possible free martin heifer.
Her teats were sore looking and raw when she came, we got her last saturday (april 1st so i guess the jokes on me 🤔). Her front teats were tollerable to touch but she would still kick...she isnt hardly kicking at all with them now so they are healing nicely with coconut oil at milking and a homemade balm after milking.

I cant even barely touch her back teats without her kicking though...like i said before it isnt a mean kick but a kick none the less. Should i smack her on the shin with a spoon when she kicks (i read that somewhere on this forum). I dont want to punish her for kicking simply because she hurts but i also dont want this to become a bad habit especially since this is her first lactation and she needs to learn thats not acceptable behavior. I am not for animal abuse at all but these are large potentially deadly animals and i am at the top of the food chain so i will do what is needed to make sure this doesnt continue...on a side note i dont believe a little whack-a-roo is abuse...simply disipline but that is my opinion.

It is obvious that she doesnt respect me yet...she tries to bully me around and head butt me...knocked the wind out of me this morning...i sternly said NO in my mad momma bear voice thats sends chills down my 17 yr old sons neck to this day 😋 Then i untied her and led her around the pin until she walked nicely with me then tied her back up and finished milking. She tolerates me but she walks away from me right away when i enter her pen and i have to follow her around the pin for a few laps before she gives up and lets me rub on her...i dont chase her but i walk slowly behind her until she figures out im not giving up. My husband on the other hand is obviously her dominant person...she goes right up to him...lets him halter her up no problem...he is after all the cow whisperer so im not surprised! He helps me milk in the evenings and she still kicks/swats him away when he touches her back teats so i dont believe the kicking is personal...the head butt most certainly was. Should i have smacked her nose or did i do the righy thing?

I put the calf back on this morning to nurse out the back 2 quarters. I am getting about a half a gallon out of the front two quarters...does that sound about right for a first time heifer that has been moved twice since being fresh and is aproximatly 3 months pregnant?

I cant help thinking that having the calf nurse on her is creating some of her reluctance towards me milking her so i would really like to get this kicking under control so i can hand milk her all the way and bottle feed the calf.

As far as feed and what not...she has free access to a bale of broam grass....i give her a bit of alfalfa and a 1/4 of a 5 gallon bucket of grain (cracked corn and oats) at milking time. We will be switching to either just oats or oats and cracked milo but no corn once this is gone. She doesnt seem to care for the alfalfa but gets some of the leaves that fall off into the bottom of her bucket and mixes with the grain. We dont have any mineral or salt for her yet....trying to figure out what is the best the block or the powdered. I have given her kefir water with her grain twice but she didnt seem to thrilled about it. Once she is used to me and the routine she will have access to a 10 acre grass pasture but until then she has to be in "jail" in the corrals.

Any tips and advice would be great....it was suggested to tie her leg back but as of this moment our one and only rope is missing in action. We have tried to hold her tail up but she still manages to kick fairly well so that didnt work. She kicks when the calf nurses but the calf nurses from behind and she is a side kicker so she never actually makes contact with the baby. Whereas with me im on the side so if she kicks i have to move or she will certainly nail me. She has gotten me on the wrist as well as the thigh and neither one really hurt and they didnt leave a mark at all so i dont feel threatened by the kicks but im not going to let my guard down as i know it only takes one bad kick to do some serious damage to a person.

[bnb87]

For tomorrow, after you go BUY a rope , let us know how that goes. If you can't get her foot tied, maybe you could try a belly rope. Either way though, you will be needing a rope (more than one eventually

[blaithin]

She'll be jumpy for at least a week as everything is new. I've milked cows and touched them all over at their homes but when I get them home, new story. Right now she just doesn't know her ranking yet, she's testing to see what she can get away with.

I agree get the rope for safety. She may not be kicking hard but she only has to step on you once to hurt you or put a bit more effort in a kick to send you flying. About the worst thing you could do with a kicking cow is think "oh not a biggy, she doesn't kick hard" Her kicks are her warnings. You don't heed them, they're going to get worse.

It may be worth it to just take a small stick (as long as she doesn't find them threatening. Some cows do) and do things that she kicks at. When she kicks, tap her with the stick. Kind of like spinning a horse when it's done something you don't want as horses don't like spinning. If she's not a fan of a tap on the leg then let her know when she's going to earn a tap. Don't even need to milk, just touch her all over the udder area and tap when earned. Scratch and brush when she behaves (I've found a secretly good brush spot is just in front of the udder and towards the navel, they have issues reaching there themselves!)

In all this method keep in mind that all cattle react to things differently and she may not appreciate tapping at all and get worse and she may not like belly scratches. Always use your judgment on how the cow is reacting. Just because it works for us online with our cows doesn't mean it's a for sure thing.

But above all I think time and routine is going to be what helps her most

[sallymae16]

If the kicking from milking is from pain I wouldn't whack her. Does she kick only on one side or both?

When I was helping a friend milk a cow whose udder had been seriously injured we had one person jacking her tail, one person on either side of her rump trying to holding her still and one person milking in a position in which it was least dangerous of flying hooves.

I would try tying a leg back and go from there. Also if you squeeze a teat, then she kicks, then you let go; that's teaching her that if she kicks you let go. Try to milk, or at least keep your hand on her udder while she's kicking - if it's safe!
That's what worked for me but you may have to do something different.

[Kelsey]

Can you milk her rear teats from behind? I'll often do that when a cow is fresh - and sore - and then I don't have to worry about kicking as much.

Yes, sounds like the kicking is all pain related, so I'd try your best to limit the kicking with a rope or kick stop and not whack her or yell too much. Are her kicks coordinated to the side you're milking - ie right teat = right leg kick and left = left? That's a great indicator that she's sore and just wants you to stop, not that she's mad or trying to hurt you.

But for the ramming you in the pen ... that is purely a dominance issue and you need to do everything possible to stop it ASAP (that is not typical milk cow behavior, more like wild angry beef cow, or angry bull, behavior). If she makes any movement towards you (with a threatening look), yell loud and deep and lunge at her until she flees. If she actually comes close to you, in your personal space (set a limit to how close she is allowed - like 6 feet) you need to have a broomstick or something handy. Yes, I would have slammed her across the nose and screamed and made her think she was going to die for a second, then stopped and ignored her.
I really want you to realize that that behavior is SOOOO not acceptable or even typical of a cow - you need to be super careful with her (don't go in pen with her alone) and do everything possible to turn her behavior around immediately.

[victoria]

Salleymae that was the best advice ive gotten so far...i usually pulled back when she kicked (mostly out of reflex and being startled i am geener than grass when it comes to all this after all 🤓) but last night i kept a good grip and hung on like you said...she eventually got the idea and figured out i wasnt goin away that easily and stopped kicking for several minutes at a time. It took me a good 45 mins to get 1/2 gallon from her back 2 quarters. I could feel and see her udder pulling the milk back up and would get a trickle then switched to the other back teat, then when that one trickled i gave her udder a good massage and repeated (i only touch one back teat at a time or she flips out kickin like mad). She was shaking by the end of it and i feel horrible that i caused her that much pain but i would rather that than her get mastitis and ruin her back quarters. The teats are healing as they are scabbing over every day vs being red raw wounds when she first came. By the end of milking the scabs are off so i hope they keep healing.

She doesnt mind me rubbing all over her udder even the back 2 quarters...its just those painfully soare teats. The fronts are almost completely healed but those backs are still bad. Ill post pics i took this morning before milking. Ive been keeping the balm good and thick on them.

She was WAY calmer after milking today and let me rub her down all over for a good 15 mins and stopped shaking within a couple mins so we ended things on a really good note i feel. We rigged up a gate to use to squeeze her tight against the corral so she cant actually kick me now so i have far more confidence in her and myself so im sure i was putting off calmer vibes for her 👍🏼

I really appreciate everyones advice...the only thing i really required for a first time cow was to not be a kicker but im positive she is the right cow for me and i just have to be patient with her, she is everything i hoped for and im very confident that she wont kick once the teats heal...especially considering she hardly kicks with the front teats that are almost healed.

On a side note lil gypsy moonlight figured out the bottle in less than 30 mins and this morning took right to it almost immediatly....im thinking this mornings calmness is a repercussion of pulling gypsy from marcy, she just actrd different but time will tell i suppose.

Question...I am getting about a gallon every milking....does that sound about right for a first year heifer that has just been moved and is about 3 mo pregnant with 2 really sore teats?

[bnb87]

With the size of her udder, I would expect you will be getting more than that, maybe double that or more before too long. I would expect her to be holding up a bit since she has had a calf on her, so not quite letting you have all the milk yet. Should increase in a few days when she realizes you are her calf now and the other gal is not coming back (well, unless you decide to give her another go after dremmeling her teeth smoother, but that is another day's decision I suppose)

Sounds like you are getting things working better and here is hoping it continues on just like that!

[victoria]

Tonights milking was really good...slight swiping of the legs but not really a kick...i think she is feeling better as well as getting attached to me since the calf was pulled...she licked my face when we were done tonight 😳🤗.

Here are the pics of this morning:

[victoria]

[victoria]

Thanks Bnb! Yes she gave me just shy of 1 1/2 gallons tonight 🤗 I think for the sake of our new relationship im gonna just bottle feed the calf until she is 6 months old.

[sallymae16]

Apr 6, 2017 0:07:44 GMT -5 victoria said:

Salleymae that was the best advice ive gotten so far...i usually pulled back when she kicked (mostly out of reflex and being startled i am geener than grass when it comes to all this after all 🤓) but last night i kept a good grip and hung on like you said...she eventually got the idea and figured out i wasnt goin away that easily and stopped kicking for several minutes at a time. It took me a good 45 mins to get 1/2 gallon from her back 2 quarters. I could feel and see her udder pulling the milk back up and would get a trickle then switched to the other back teat, then when that one trickled i gave her udder a good massage and repeated (i only touch one back teat at a time or she flips out kickin like mad). She was shaking by the end of it and i feel horrible that i caused her that much pain but i would rather that than her get mastitis and ruin her back quarters. The teats are healing as they are scabbing over every day vs being red raw wounds when she first came. By the end of milking the scabs are off so i hope they keep healing.

She doesnt mind me rubbing all over her udder even the back 2 quarters...its just those painfully soare teats. The fronts are almost completely healed but those backs are still bad. Ill post pics i took this morning before milking. Ive been keeping the balm good and thick on them.

She was WAY calmer after milking today and let me rub her down all over for a good 15 mins and stopped shaking within a couple mins so we ended things on a really good note i feel. We rigged up a gate to use to squeeze her tight against the corral so she cant actually kick me now so i have far more confidence in her and myself so im sure i was putting off calmer vibes for her 👍🏼

I really appreciate everyones advice...the only thing i really required for a first time cow was to not be a kicker but im positive she is the right cow for me and i just have to be patient with her, she is everything i hoped for and im very confident that she wont kick once the teats heal...especially considering she hardly kicks with the front teats that are almost healed.

On a side note lil gypsy moonlight figured out the bottle in less than 30 mins and this morning took right to it almost immediatly....im thinking this mornings calmness is a repercussion of pulling gypsy from marcy, she just actrd different but time will tell i suppose.

Question...I am getting about a gallon every milking....does that sound about right for a first year heifer that has just been moved and is about 3 mo pregnant with 2 really sore teats?

I'm so glad to here that things are going better for you! Yes it can be a bit scary keeping your hand down there while she's kicking but it's worth it in the end! Another thing that might help with her pain is putting a little oil on her teats before milking so you have some lubricant, it also helps heal faster when the skin isn't so dry. Just enough to make it moist/slippery. That will help with the friction!

[saraw]

I can't remember what thread it was but someone was talking about using Oragel on cut up teats. I believe they applied it a minute or so before milking, then wiped it off. That and coconut oil beforehand to soften them up (not sure how the Oragel would do softening them..). You did say you were using coconut oil, though. If I had known about the Oragel sooner I would've tried it.

The pictures you've posted could have been of my cow! Hers were pretty bad for a while. Looked like they had road maps on them and would bleed. They just looked awful and I knew they hurt her cause I had the kicking just like you're describing (which is when I finally got my stanchion built and that helped that a lot). I figured up it was from a mixture of the cold weather and 2 calves eating from her (her own and the other calf that has his own mother but both of the calves think they have 2 mothers..). So ended up I'm using Bag Balm on her (I'd rather use something homemade but I was desperate). It has helped, that and it has been warmer out for a while now, but tomorrow isn't going to be so warm so I'll see how she is with that.

So is the weather still cold where you're at? I really feel that's a big factor with cracked teats, but might not be the whole problem.
Really glad to hear you have a way to "squeeze" her rather than just tying her. That helped in my case a LOT. It sounds like you know what you're doing and I think you'll be just fine real soon!