Pulling back...

[SebFarm]

Oct 30, 2014 10:25:30 GMT -5 wyomama said:

She was a bit lazy, and had to be persuaded that I really meant to ride all the way around the hayfield, but we got along just fine. She is always easy to catch, easy to clean her hooves, easy to saddle, no problem except that she doesn't want to move very fast or work very hard. I learned when she refused to go where I told her that walking around in circles usually distracted her enough so she would do as I said. I would have said that her only real faults were being lazy and thinking only about food. Her ground manners aren't perfect--she can be a bit pushy, but it never seemed overwhelming, and she responded well to being asked to be respectful. She was pretty thin when we got her, but fattened up on pasture pretty quickly. She had been living in a boarding stable, and had bite marks on her rump, so I guessed that she didn't get along too well with the other horses, and was last on the hay-line.

I may sound like an old meany, but I really think you have a smart, dominant mare who has got your number and is prank calling it on a regular basis.

A "lazy" horse is an intelligent horse - they are going to make you insist, or be sure of what you are asking, and if they can get you to give it up by being a little passive-aggressive, so much the better. A horse that is "thinking only about food" is a horse that's pretty sure that she's running the show, and not paying attention to the unworthy human. A horse that is "a bit pushy" is dominant and pushing the limits, testing to see at what point (if ever) you're actually going to get serious about what you are requiring of her. An older horse with bite marks on her rump is usually *not* the one who is last on the hay-line, she's somewhere in the middle, or even #2 or #3, and is always testing the limits and the hierarchy. She's not falling into line at the dirty look or the pinned ear or the lifted foot, she's MAKING that other horse prove that they mean what they say by not giving it up until they chase her off with teeth bared.  More than once.   And she's doing the exact same thing with you.

This horse has got a lot to teach you - about horses, about horse psychology, but mostly about yourself.

If she's doing it to be a pain in the rear, not out of true fear, when you hop on her make sure you have a good helmet and a good safety vest! Mares especially get to be a real hassle when you start correcting their attitude, they tend to then make every part of you working with them a nightmare. Sounds like your next project will be when she gets ridden and asked to move, she'll throw her head and start backing up. Hate to say it, but if your good at staying in the saddle, easiest way to cure this is hop on near a electric fence. Trust me, when she backs into it she'll move forward quickly!! Turning them into tight circles so they move their feet also works. But I found the hot wire to be most effective ( and found that out by accident ) can you video her be ridden and tied and upload it to youtube so we can watch?

[susaq]

Always tie the lead rope to the halter. I have 4 young quarter horses that I had to train. When I tied my very large mare for the first time she broke the clip. When the rope is tied on they can't break it. I use a rope halter.

Do you give her any joint supplements? Glucosamine, MSM, and Chondroitin will help a lot if it is a pain issue with her joints. I have a dwarf minihorse that was born here (didn't now momma was pregnant when we got her.) He has very loose ligaments. I use REACH joint supplement on him. I can tell the difference in how he acts and moves. Will edit this and try to get a pic of him on here. Your horse is 24 or 25 and may need the supplement. Couldn't hurt.

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[wyomama]

Oct 30, 2014 10:35:46 GMT -5 SebFarm said:

<abbr data-timestamp="1414683346000" class="time" title="Oct 30, 2014 9:35:46 GMT -6">Oct 30, 2014 9:35:46 GMT -6</abbr> sebastopolfarm said: Hate to say it, but if your good at staying in the saddle, easiest way to cure this is hop on near a electric fence. Trust me, when she backs into it she'll move forward quickly!! Turning them into tight circles so they move their feet also works. But I found the hot wire to be most effective ( and found that out by accident ) can you video her be ridden and tied and upload it to youtube so we can watch?

LOL - what I do if they pull that is....   back up.  If they want to back up, fine, we'll back up.  And back up, and back up, and back up, and back up.  And by the time we hit 50' of backing up, we stop and I ask them to move forward again. 

You have to take her avoidances and make them NOT pay.  Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. 

[simplynaturalfarm]

I have found that always works well also - the fellow I have is lazy and he has "I'm not going forward, I'll back now". So we will back til China and pretend it is my idea. Then he decides forward was not so bad . . We had a pony (same one I mention below) who would have fits if we went down a trail he didn't want to. He could practically run backwards and he would do so and then try to spin and run. It was easy to stop him running and spinning, and when he was being a booger and backing, we'd simply turn him so he was facing the other way and then back him down the trail he didn't want to go and we'd back him down it for 20-50 feet. ask him to stop and wait calmly, turn him around and continue down the trail he hadn't wanted. We could almost always sense when he was going to act dumb, and we'd then actually turn him and choose to back him down it BEFORE he could make it his decision and after about a week of doing that, he decided going forward was easier than going backwards and he stopped making a fuss.

This same pony who when he decided he'd had enough of riding would paw and then lay down to get you off. He also would buck going up hills if he had a bareback rider (he knew they would slip right off) and then he would run and run away in the hopes that nobody would catch him. We'd have to wait until he stopped to pee to catch him! He was from a trail riding ranch and he was a PITA. He was so lazy until you left him at home and went riding with a buddy and then he was Mr break apart any fence or barn to run after you. Yes, he broke through our 2 barns by donkey kicking over and over a the wall until it disintegrated and he had a rear, put your top feet over the rail of the fence and pull the board towards himself to pop it off the post. He had been tethered most of his life, so we had to foot tether him to keep him in where we wanted.

In re. to the horse that pulled back - he didn't necessarily have to have come to you with that habit. I had an Arab who never EVER pulled. One day something scared him (he was normally not afraid of ANYTHING) and he jerked back and snapped his lead and the metal snap (that was broken) somehow hit him in the face. He went through weird episodes of freaking out while tied for about 2 weeks and I did the neck rope and tire and when he freaked out I would just back up, ignore him while he pulled, and then continue whatever we were doing. Followed be tremendously long periods of being tied and tethered and after 2 weeks he never pulled ever again. If I had gotten him a day before this episode, I might have thought he came to me with the habit, but no, I bought him as a 3 year old and he was 7 when this happened and he was normally a gentleman

I think it is easy to be really soft with them and train them into habits by feeling sorry for them. It is not a hard thing to stand in one place for a few hours and not something that they should freak out over. Same with a cow in a stanchion. It is not ridiculous to ask them to stand nicely for 20 minutes, and if they think 20 minutes is a big deal, just wait til they see how a bad 20 minutes can turn into 2 hours with me . Around here there are many people who tie their horses all day with a saddle on so they can get on them to do multiple things, and then the horses are on pasture all night. I'm not saying we should all do this, but a patient horse is a mighty good horse

[SebFarm]

I started a 9 year old Morgan gelding who was stubborn and never had a saddle on his back. His owner let him walk all over her, literally also. He didn't want to be tied. He wanted to pull me around the stall. Tied him to a post with his head pretty much touching it so in case he wanted to jerk back he wouldn't have the inertia to break anything or hurt himself. It's a good thing we are out in the country. He'd throw a fit and paw and scream. A couple months later he learned to chill. I could have him on a lead rope and drop it and walk away, he stood post still by the time I sold him a year later as a dead broke kid safe pony.
It's possible to put a horse in a very stubborn mindset into another mindset. Just the process make you feel like a terrible person.

[robynsa]

Oct 30, 2014 11:12:37 GMT -5 wyomama said:

Oct 30, 2014 10:35:46 GMT -5 SebFarm said:

<abbr data-timestamp="1414683346000" class="time" title="Oct 30, 2014 9:35:46 GMT -6">Oct 30, 2014 9:35:46 GMT -6</abbr> sebastopolfarm said: Hate to say it, but if your good at staying in the saddle, easiest way to cure this is hop on near a electric fence. Trust me, when she backs into it she'll move forward quickly!! Turning them into tight circles so they move their feet also works. But I found the hot wire to be most effective ( and found that out by accident ) can you video her be ridden and tied and upload it to youtube so we can watch?

LOL - what I do if they pull that is....   back up.  If they want to back up, fine, we'll back up.  And back up, and back up, and back up, and back up.  And by the time we hit 50' of backing up, we stop and I ask them to move forward again. 

You have to take her avoidances and make them NOT pay.  Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. 

I got some strange looks one day when people were driving past a Palomino walking backwards for 100m. Yup. You wanna back up, let's do it! Come to think of it, he hasn't done it since.

[Bobbie]

Have you checked her teeth for hooks? If she has them and turns her head while haltered it could cause a lot of pain. Or pressure on the cuts in her mouth.

[judyc]

NUMBER ONE, get a lead rope with a bull snap on it. I ONLY use leads with bull snaps. Those brass jobbies are easy to break. I had a mare that spooked once and broke the halter. I put the rope around the neck (didn't bother threading it through the halter) and tied two knots in the rope, so that the rope wouldn't choke her, or get too loose and come off. So, about 4 inches of lead rope between the knots. That's where the snap (bull snap) will fasten, making a loop. Once the mare tests the rope and finds out that SHE is the only one that gets hurt, she'll stand. I would make it a habit to use a neck rope for a long time. Make sure to tie her to something sturdy; I had a phone pole hitching post. After a time or two, she should calm down and think about other tricks.

Oh, and put the rope across the poll, right behind the ears. The second picture shows the correct position. You want the rope to go across a pressure point, so the old mare gets the message.

[lively]

I gotta agree Wyo. Old horses are generally pretty darn smart and seen a lot.They can peg a person faster than any psychologist lol. Smart horses can be fantastic or a total nightmare, sometimes both. You are no meanie Wyo. Sometimes it just takes tough love.

[wyomama]

I owned/operated a full care boarding stable for 20 years. I'm not taking any new boarders (well we know how well that worked, but still!) I've got three that will be here until they die. As part of that, I had a trainer who leased my arena in the winter months, and filled any remaining stalls I had. Of course, in the winter months, that's when trainers get the problem children. The last time I counted, I'd had around 200 horses run through over the years, that I handled and interacted with on a daily basis.

I've heard all kinds of excuses for bad behavior, and watched all kinds of smug equine faces as they work the psychological system for all it's worth.

[daisyhill]

Wyomama, I am positive that you are more than right (if that is possible). Everything you have said completely clicked with everything that I have experienced with Candy. This is even some stuff that I knew about, in a vague cerebral way, but it sure helps to have it articulated. What you said about the bite-marks and pecking order makes sense. I had thought that might have been a reason for her thinness, but maybe she was just plain being underfed. And no, you don't sound like a meany at all! I really appreciate your perspective.

I am processing all of these ideas. I don't love the idea of being on her when she backs into the electric fence, but let me tell you that it has crossed my mind!

[daisyhill]

My "post" is a stout walnut tree, so she's in no danger of breaking that. I'll look into the different lead, rope halter, neck rope, etc. Those all sound like good ideas.

And thank you everyone else who has contributed also--I'm reading everything and really appreciate the conversation.

[dunderi]

Oct 31, 2014 23:33:21 GMT -5 daisyhill said:

My "post" is a stout walnut tree, so she's in no danger of breaking that. I'll look into the different lead, rope halter, neck rope, etc. Those all sound like good ideas.

And thank you everyone else who has contributed also--I'm reading everything and really appreciate the conversation.

We call ours the "tree of knowledge"

[robynsa]

Another thing to factor in is that if she was used as a lesson horse, or her previous owner worked her regularly, she's likely to misbehave if only worked from time to time. It's one of the reasons that you couldn't buy a lesson horse at the yard I learnt to ride at - lesson horses were very fit and well behaved from being ridden by 3 or 4 different people every day, but when left to get fat and only ridden infrequently they became monsters.