Horse with PTSD? Any ideas?

[grasslover]

Some friends of mine asked my advice with their daughter's horse. They've had him a year or so, bought him from a guy who couldn't ride for three years, don't know any more about his history. The horse has perfect, and i mean textbook, ground manners. I watched the girl ride for a few minutes. The horse was very tense, almost no stopping him, very little steering and overall he was getting away with a lot.
SO, i decided to ride him and see what he felt like.
He was super tense, hard to stop and got angry when i didn't let him get away with his usual bits of bad behavior. But, he was hard to stop. So i decided to go from his usual snaffle to a curb with the chain very loose. He tosses his head too so i hoped the action of the curb would help bring it down.
Well, he got veyr scared when i got on. I was vey nice to him used the reins as gently as possible. from his responses i knew he'd used a curb before and knew about it. After a few minutes i asked him stop (from a walk...) and he reared straight up, fell on my left leg (which is not broken thank god) and broke out in sweat.
Now, i've been riding horses all my life, have trained many and worked with many others. I ride english style basically but am flexible, i've dealt with nutty horses, lazy horses, green horses, but never before badly abused horses. I've never had a horse do this before, this guy wanted me off his back he knew how to make that happen.
I was lucky to walk away on my own legs. My left leg is very bruised, and my rear end feels like it went through a meat tenderizer
This horse was terrified, he obviously felt trapped and knew only one way out. I'd been extremely nice to him, very light rein use, gentle legs, i know how to ride skitish, young, or untrained horses, and very well trained horses, but the way this guy reacted has shaken my confidence and rather baffled me. from his later reactions to me, even though i didn't so much as speak to him after he reared fell, i think he was afraid i would begin beating him (which of course i did not). I think he has been beaten in the past.
I think that when i rode him and did not let him get away with the usual crap, he got scared, felt he wasn't in charge as he usually is when the girl rides him, and decided to dump me. Something i did triggered some very bad memories, but what i was doing was simply asking for a bit of stopping, some turning, very basic stuff.
What would you do? I am afraid for the kid (she's 12), and strongly recommended they get rid of the horse. He is just out of my league and way way way out of their league to deal with.
Now, what can you do with a horse like this? in all conscience i think it's rather bad to try and sell him, i hate to see any horse go to auction, but it also costs a ton to feed a horse who is useless. There are so many really good horses out there who just need a home, why keep this gnarly one around and have him be a potential danger?
Anyway, i'd just love a few opinions.

[twistedwillow]

We had a 16h bay Arab mare like that when I was younger. We were told that she had had bad experiences with vets when she was a foal, so buckets scared her. We weren't told that she could go from totally trained, gorgeous pleasure horse to BAT @$%#@* CRAZY in 2 seconds! We learned to jump off the back of her rump when she reared up. My older sister was about 16 at the time and took her to Rodeo Bible Camp to use as a barrel horse.... they used her as a bare-back bucking horse instead! Right after she came home from camp we sold her to someone who though she could 'therapy' the devil out of her. I hope she helped her. She was gorgeous, and (usually) sweet. But when she went crazy she went all the way crazy.
A 12 year old needs a safe, but fun horse. They ought to find her something more suitable for a youngster- before she gets hurt! There are people out there who want to "save" these horses. Perhaps they should advertise her as an 'in need of therapy' animal, and that child shouldn't ride her between now and then.

[ellie]

Wow, how awful for everyone. I'm not a horse person so I'll let the experts speak. But I am an animal person and I applaud your thinking on not selling this horse. Probably safest and kindest all around to shoot him?

[haecklers]

When you said you didn't let him get away with crap, what did you do exactly? I'm wondering if he was just afraid of you because you are a stranger. If you hit him with a crop or scolded him in a sharp tone, it could have increased his fear (you said he was tense). Not that I'm accusing you of anything but I've seen all kinds of people and some horses just are nervous around people they don't know. Pushing an already nervous animal can bring out some defensiveness, whether or not it's been abused.

In your place, and I'm no horse expert, if the horse was tense, I'd leave him alone after just a little bit of handling. Or maybe you only realized he was tense in hindsight?

It could be there's nothing wrong with him other than some events leading up to before you rode him that got him in a nervous state before that even happened, so you riding him, changing his bit, etc. was just the last straw for him.

[wyomama]

I had a horse that was never abused, never treated harshly. I know this for a fact because I got him as a weanling, and I started him. About his 12th ride, he spooked, I got a little off balance, and then he bucked, and I got dumped. Ever after that, anytime anything went wrong, he was a freak - and sometimes he'd just blow up for no apparent reason, but he always acted like he'd been abused.

They need to get rid of him. Whether he's got something genetically wrong with his disposition, or had some experience he's carrying some trauma from, he's not appropriate for a 12 year old.

[dunderi]

Oct 8, 2013 17:56:59 GMT -5 wyomama said:

They need to get rid of him. Whether he's got something genetically wrong with his disposition, or had some experience he's carrying some trauma from, he's not appropriate for a 12 year old.

completely agree. this horse is dangerous. unless you were severely messing with him in an unacceptable way with that curb bit, there is no excuse other than a snake at his feet for rearing.

a friend of mine bought a 16.3hh buckskin stockhorse - i rode him at the seller's house for her, and he was delightful, she was in love at first sight. Three weeks later (riding every day no dramas) he suddenly bolted and threw me. and changed, into a completely different horse. couldn't catch him. certainly couldn't saddle him. She's been working INTENSIVELY now with remedial work for this horse for over a year, and he's still a nervous nellie, and untrustworthy. nearly killed me (i headbutted a starpicket on the way down) and this was a horse we'd been riding out along a main rd. this is a horse we'd put children on. (we're pretty sure he'd been doped with something)

any behaviour like that, sudden, "unreasonable expressions of madness" warrant a serious question about retraining and assesment of mental fitness, and if still not trustworthy after that, there's only one place for them IMO. some horses you just can't help.

a 12yo certainly shouldn't be riding an untrustworthy horse. i know i "bounced" better hitting the ground as a 12yo than i do now... but it only takes one serious accident, and goodness knows there's enough of that from perfectly good, sound, trustworthy horses!

don't get me wrong, i've had horses my whole life. you get "hot" horses, fast horses, horses with hard brakes, horses that get silly around other horses, horses that are mongrels to catch on the ground but a delight to ride... and i love em. buying a pony for Lillien as soon as we move! but for kids especially, it's got to be a horse you can trust.

if the horse is permanently scared, or aggressive, or untrustworthy, it's dogfood, not a kid's mount.

[robynsa]

I agree with wyomama. You'll probably find that the reason the horse has such perfect ground manners is because his previous riders were too scared to ride him and focused on ground manners instead. I would definitely move him on and get something more suitable for a 12yo. A horse that rears over backwards is a potentially fatal accident waiting to happen.

[tassie]

These are fear or pain responses. His teeth/mouth might need attention or he may have spinal problems that get aggravated by a saddle (all saddles don't fit all horses, they should be fitted to the particular horse). That might (MIGHT!) explain his good ground manners.

This is a problem horse that needs a lot of understanding and patience, and even then he might be only suitable for a very experienced rider. Poor guy.

But yeah, he's definitely not going to be a good fit for a 12 year old kid.

Trina

edited to add that these people (on the following website) are the absolute best for learning how to deal with problem horses (I even do their stuff on my cows and they love it ) www.ttouch.com/

I did a 5 day workshop with Robyn Hood (yes, that really is her name) a few years ago and it was mind bogglingly good.

[ptcowgirl]

Oct 9, 2013 3:16:59 GMT -5 tassie said:

These are fear or pain responses. His teeth/mouth might need attention or he may have spinal problems that get aggravated by a saddle (all saddles don't fit all horses, they should be fitted to the particular horse). That might (MIGHT!) explain his good ground manners.

This is a problem horse that needs a lot of understanding and patience, and even then he might be only suitable for a very experienced rider. Poor guy.

But yeah, he's definitely not going to be a good fit for a 12 year old kid.

Trina

edited to add that these people (on the following website) are the absolute best for learning how to deal with problem horses (I even do their stuff on my cows and they love it ) www.ttouch.com/

I did a 5 day workshop with Robyn Hood (yes, that really is her name) a few years ago and it was mind bogglingly good.

Agree with this. Troubleshoot from the ground. Start with his mouth. Bridle him and use the reins to turn his head this way and that, to stop, to walk/trot.

Common dental problems:
Need floated
Wolf teeth need removed
Males, occasionally canines
Ulcerations of the cheeks & gums

Next do the saddle. Note does he tense as you cinch him up? When you put weight in stirrup? Once your sitting square? Again, do as much from ground and note his response. Walk, back, turn, stop etc.

Possible problems
Cold backed
Cinch pinch (remembered)
Kissing spine (is he short-backed)
Chiropractic needs/subluxation of a vertebrae or joint
Ill fitting saddle
And even navicular or leg/feet soreness

A good vet exam and palpation of his back and legs is also reccomended. But yes, a bad experience can stick with a horse for life. I loaned out a good show mare and as she was being unloaded the guy backed her into an electric fence by accident. From that pt on any 4ft opening you pointed her nose at she'd run thru it. A chain was necessary for loading, even walking into a stall, even 15 yrs later. We tried to work with her but she always remembered. If u made her halt she'd dance and stress until she broke into a full sweaty lather.

At any rate, not a 12 yr olds horse. Hope he comes around and good luck.

[MurphysLaw]

Oct 9, 2013 7:21:00 GMT -5 ptcowgirl said:

Oct 9, 2013 3:16:59 GMT -5 tassie said:

These are fear or pain responses. His teeth/mouth might need attention or he may have spinal problems that get aggravated by a saddle (all saddles don't fit all horses, they should be fitted to the particular horse). That might (MIGHT!) explain his good ground manners.

This is a problem horse that needs a lot of understanding and patience, and even then he might be only suitable for a very experienced rider. Poor guy.

But yeah, he's definitely not going to be a good fit for a 12 year old kid.

Trina

edited to add that these people (on the following website) are the absolute best for learning how to deal with problem horses (I even do their stuff on my cows and they love it ) www.ttouch.com/

I did a 5 day workshop with Robyn Hood (yes, that really is her name) a few years ago and it was mind bogglingly good.

Agree with this. Troubleshoot from the ground. Start with his mouth. Bridle him and use the reins to turn his head this way and that, to stop, to walk/trot.

Common dental problems:
Need floated
Wolf teeth need removed
Males, occasionally canines
Ulcerations of the cheeks & gums

Next do the saddle. Note does he tense as you cinch him up? When you put weight in stirrup? Once your sitting square? Again, do as much from ground and note his response. Walk, back, turn, stop etc.

Possible problems
Cold backed
Cinch pinch (remembered)
Kissing spine (is he short-backed)
Chiropractic needs/subluxation of a vertebrae or joint
Ill fitting saddle
And even navicular or leg/feet soreness

A good vet exam and palpation of his back and legs is also reccomended. But yes, a bad experience can stick with a horse for life. I loaned out a good show mare and as she was being unloaded the guy backed her into an electric fence by accident. From that pt on any 4ft opening you pointed her nose at she'd run thru it. A chain was necessary for loading, even walking into a stall, even 15 yrs later. We tried to work with her but she always remembered. If u made her halt she'd dance and stress until she broke into a full sweaty lather.

At any rate, not a 12 yr olds horse. Hope he comes around and good luck.

^this!!
Y'all took the words out of my mouth. Grasslover, you mentioned they had the horse for a year. Was the horse always like this or did he start this recently? The first thing that came to mind was pain. He may be responding to a pain issue and that's why he's tensing up when ridden. He knows it's going to hurt. If it hurts too bad, he may know how to make it stop - dumping the rider. Now the bit issue, I agree - teeth. JMHO
So he has perfect ground manners. That tells me he knows the rules. That attitude should carry over to being ridden, to a point but with this history of his reactions to being ridden, he is definitely not for a child. I have a 12 year old and if I were this horse's owner, I'd be afraid that my daughter would never want to ride again. She needs a horse that is suitable for her riding level and a horse she can have fun on. I'd be afraid that even if this horse's issues were resolved, the child would always still have that fear in the back of her mind that he could do this again... and never be able to relax and have fun.
There are many people who like to take 'problem' horses and work with them. Kudos to you for helping them and I hope they make the right decision

[wyomama]

I hate to sound like an old grump, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Yes, I'm sure there is a reason for this horse to act this way, certainly there is in his mind, there may even be a pain or discomfort or trauma issue. BUT - when faced with pain or fear, there are a huge range of ways for a horse to react - and whether they react aggressively or submissively (buck or balk) is a matter of disposition, which cannot be changed at the core - it can only be worked around, trained down, but never, never eradicated.

It's no different than we judge cows - there are cows that when they are afraid or upset will try to run away or avoid you, there are cows that when they afraid or upset will try to take you out. There's got to be an overwhelming reason not to eat a cow who would rather "fight" than "flight", and I'm old and brittle and jaded enough and have enough battle scars that I (now) hold the same standard for horses. I don't care about showing anymore, I don't have a job for my horses to do anymore that's more important than carrying me where I want to go once in awhile and being sweet about it, so for me, there is no reason to feed a horse like that. Certainly not for a child.

The horse I mentioned before? I had a couple of trainers work with him - and yes, spent a couple grand on lameness exams and chiropractic evaluations and even acupuncture - one campaigned him in Hunter Under Saddle, and he was state champion 2 years, and top 10 in the region. He still would get pissed or worked up and buck though - but she loved winning, and knew his signs so for the most part, she could stay in the middle of him. She bought him from me, a couple of years later sold him. He hurt his next two owners - the first one he just scared the crap out of and shattered her confidence, the second one he broke her back and she's never completely recovered. I've since lost track of him, but I must say that "beautiful movement" or not, I'm really, really sorry that I didn't shoot him while he was still mine. On the ground, he was an absolute angel and a perfect gentleman, but if he got scared, upset, confused or mad under saddle, he was going to blow up.

[Debbie Lincoln]

All of the above.
I too have learned the hard way that you cannot change a horse's basic disposition. And a 12 year old should never get on that one.
It's not fun to ride a horse that you are constantly in fear of upsetting. Theres a reason he wasn't ridden for 3 years.
Thank God HE wasn't a SHE and they bred more of the same, which so often happens with un-rideable horses.

[tassie]

Yes, that's why I said maybe .

[shire]

I agree with getting rid of him if there is no medical issues that are causing it. My first mare was like that! She acted nervous the whole time I was riding her, She would rear if I asked her to whoa, she would throw her head while mounting, yet she was super polite on the ground. I did my best to stay as soft as possible but for her soft was inviting bucks and short stops. I had a trainer work with her for a year. Then I took lessons to better my riding once a week for almost a year! She was so good after the training. However, when she had her days she was a nightmare. She would just randomly act up but would be perfect manners until you got in the saddle. One day she almost threw me into a tree. I was sore for several weeks I rode her several more times after I had her vet checked and her back worked on by a chiropractor. Both told me she was good. I even had the vet go over every inch of her to check for pain. All clear another nice day she acted completely calm. I saddled her went to mount and she immediately went into a buck. I held on for dear life until I could get my foot out of the saddle and she turned. Ended up dizzy for the next week and almost broke my arm.

I had the trainer spend more time on her. The whole time she did great. I rode her for another two months and just one day I ended up on the ground quicker than you could blink. This horse was abused before I bought her but not once mistreated while with me. It didn't matter she would just flip out randomly. More vet, chiro, and training. She finally did it to the trainer. The trainer thought it was me. She told me to sell her as lawn art. She said she was just being cranky. Not in pain, not scared, and not unknowing. She said she was just wanting to stop working and would do anything to get me off. I asked her to try again. Two months later she bucked on me again. When I didn't let her get away with it she ran into the nearest tree and reared. She completely ignored the bit. I made her continue working. She decided to behave for awhile. When I went to get off she spun and bucked. I was already on the ground and she almost flattened me. I felt something wiz by my head. I should have listened. I didn't get on her again. They should listen. A 12 year old has a long life to live. It would be horrible to get crippled or have long term back problems. Or get a head injury. When I got my new mare it made me realize how much I didn't enjoy the old one. Now I can enjoy my ride without worrying if I'm going to end up on the ground.

I had even tried bitless bridles and orthopedic pads. Everyone tried to say it was the bit. Well the bit was the only reason I didn't go six weeks without the use of my arm when she didn't yield to the pressure on her nose. It didn't matter. She just didn't want to be rode. She wanted to be a large puppy instead.

[robynsa]

I'm not going to add anything because wyomama is clearly in my brain and typing on my behalf

Except...

I have a mare who was used as a vaccine testing horse. Born into a "wild" herd, with the only human interaction being chased into a crush, banged with a needle and released. Oh, and being freeze branded. I got her as a 4yo. Backed her and 4 years later she is still my easiest, most tolerant, kindest horse. Loves cuddles, safe with anyone, absolutely bombproof, as gentle as the day is long. Never bucked or reared, never napped, never put a toe out of place.

At the same time I got a herd mate of hers - same age. Exact same upbringing, everything the same. Handled the same way as the mare above. Never a reason to be distrustful. First saddling, she reared over backwards. Broke the tree in my saddle. We persisted. Did loads of groundwork etc. Tried to saddle her again and she did the same thing. After trying and trying, I told the welfare I got her from to come fetch her. I don't actually know how she turned out. Somewhere in her psyche she was wired differently, and she was not the horse for me. Flipping over is an absolute no go for me. She had no reason to do it.

And just to add - I always check my horses for ANY physical issue that could be causing stress. This mare was as clean as a whistle. Some horses are just wired differently and some are plain whackjobs.

[ptcowgirl]

I'm gonna add couple more things...just cause I like to look at everything before I call it quits on a horse.

1) Is he Impressive bred (hypp/nh or positive)?

2) the weather has cooled here, what are ya feeding him

3) PSSM type 1 or 2 (research this). Its often mistaken as a "problem" horse, referred to as crazy, untrainable, works well then "quits". Used to be known as monday sickness, or tying up. Type one can be blood tested and type two can only be detected via muscle biopsy. Its managable if caught and proper nutrition is done. Low carb diet is a mainstay to keep muscles from getting sore. And as I add up your description, it sounds like it may be the issue since you have a divine individual on the ground. If you want to test the theory for a short time before running tests, cut as much sugar and carbs as you can for 3-4 wks. Work him on ground 20 min or so daily if he'll tolerate it. Grass hay and low sugar feed only. If at the end he shows marked improvement from the saddle then id say you've found the culprit, and would warrant the cost of testing. UC Davis I believe has the test available. These horses wontetolerate lg loads of work but can be sufficient for small trail rides etc.

Famous lines tied to the disease are Zippo, Skipper W, Beduino, Poco Beuno and a ton others in diff breeds suxh as appoloosa, paint, pony and drafts. There's a list of pssm horses on web. I just implore you to examine the possibility/s if you're able.

Good luck

[Debbie Lincoln]

I may catch heck for saying this, but there are way too many good horses out there to spend a whole lot of time and money and heart on a needy unstable potentially dangerous one. And I LOVE horses (I have 2 that I will spend a fortune on before they leave this earth). If someone wants him for yard art, great. I know how easy it is to get all caught up in the "save the horse" story and then someone gets hurt. A child's first horse needs to be bombproof, or as close to that as you can get.

[tassie]

I agree with you. I just lament that there aren't enough people with the time (and time IS money, for the most part) and commitment to deal with these horses, and by that I don't mean cure, but tolerate safely. It's just like dealing with mentally ill people, only you can legally shoot them. We expect a lot from horses, and really, why should they be so willing to let us muck around with them? I kind of admire the ones who have their own take on things, even if it means being unrideable. But then, I get all sad about the oppression of bulls, so I think I'm just a bit emotionally challenged

But that is a separate issue from the one that was raised, and that is, 'is the horse going to be OK for this kid?' and obviously it isn't.

I'm sure Grasslover has done all those basic checks, but I felt the need to say them anyway because I've met so many people who have dealt with horses for a lifetime but don't consider how their horse might be hurting just by being ridden. Sorry if I caused any offence, as none was intended .

If it were me I would try and find one of those people in the 'problem horse network' and see if there's a place for him somewhere. And good on you for doing your best for him!

Trina

[lively]

I am going to agree with what others have said about the horse needing to be sold. As for it's actions my first thoughts go with his mouth specificffally. The i bar is going to be more on his mouth than a snaffle. Have they tried him with a hackamore? Sounds crazy with his behavior but it would help with ruling out mouth/teeth problems. There are some horses who just flat out do not want to work with a bit for whatever the reason may be. I worked at a horse camp years ago where one of the camp horses had to be ridden with either a hackamore or a bosal. With either of those you had a perfect ride but if you put a bit in her mouth it was on! Full check over and no physical reason for the bit to be a problem. Some horses just do not work well with a bit. While the Hackamore may be new to the horse do not think that it is inneffective because it doe snot contact the mouth. If it is hooked up properly it is every bit as convincing as a bit can be. Now I am far from suggesting she keep the horse.
I do have one other question.. did you get back on him after he flipped? It's a scary and dangerous thing but without being remounted he just knows even more that it will work every time to get his way about not being ridden. I have seen horses broke from this habit but the fact is quite often once they start they never stop. I wish you luck but if they sell they need to be certain they give full disclosure to avoid any possible legal ramifications.

[grasslover]

I've been kicking myself that i did not get back on that a##hole after he flipped. at that moment my rear end was too sore to think of sitting in anything but a well padded chair, much less a hard western saddle. and i wasn't sure if my left leg was going to keep working.
So, no i didn't get back on, and i should have. My mistake.
They still aren't selling the horse, they're trying other things. i wish them luck but frankly i'm skeptical.