* 4 B-complex OK during late pregnancy?

[Lannie]

I'm sure it is, but I wanted a few opinions, just in case I'm wrong.

Cricket was acting a little slow yesterday, laying down outside the fence while I was in the barn milking Bandit instead of trying to undo the gate latch and chain, then when she did get up and come in, she didn't head-butt Bandit trying to get ALL the hay. They ate slowly and peacefully side by side. With "normal" cows, that would be normal, but Cricket is almost a bigger pig than Bandit, and a LOT pushier, so I noticed.

This morning, she was out in the tree rows, standing but not chewing cud, and I had to spend probably 5 or 10 minutes calling her to come in. Once again, she laid down outside the fence rather than trying to open the gate. She did eat her flake of hay that I give her while she's waiting (and she did yesterday, too), but she walked in almost *carefully* when I was finished milking and put hay in the big feeder and let her in to have breakfast with Bandit. And again, no head-butting. She looked pretty much OK to me, other than she was being a bit slow, but when I went out at 11:30 to re-fill Helen's water tub and check on everyone, once again, Cricket was standing under a tree, not chewing cud, and when I walked out to check on her, I noticed she's looking a bit hollow on the right side. Bandit was in the barn finishing up the last of the hay, and for all I know, Cricket didn't stay in there very long. I had left to bring the milk in and feed the dogs and us, so I don't know how much hay she actually ate.

So my gut tells me that for some reason, she's going ketotic on me, and I can't figure out why. I'm giving them good hay, but since I dried Cricket off, she's no longer getting pellets, beet pulp, and molasses, just grass hay. She's completely dried off now, so maybe I should start giving her something extra?

I spoke to Janene this morning, and she suggested maybe changing the minerals. They haven't touched them in forever - can minerals get "stale?" I'm going to go out and dump out all the old stuff (loose minerals, loose salt, and baking powder) and put fresh in, but I don't want this to go too far too fast. So I was going to bring Cricket in this afternoon and give her a shot of B-complex. She's about 5 or 6 weeks out from her due date, and I don't want to do anything stupid that would cause her to possibly abort. I know not to give Dex, but I don't know for sure about the Vitamin B. I assume because it's a vitamin, it's perfectly fine, but am I right?

~Lannie (who never seems to have a lack of things to worry about lately...)

[Lannie]

Well, it's 3:30 now and I want to do something. I tried Googling, but I'm not very good at that. Couldn't come up with anything regarding B-complex in pregnant cattle. I do still have some of that paste I got from Jeffers last year, so I guess I'll see if I can get some of that down her in the meantime.

This should be a simple thing, but with all the crap that goes into shots (adjuvents, etc.) I just don't know. Bandit wasn't pregnant when I gave them to her.

I tried doing a search here on KFC using "b-complex pregnancy" and telling it to search for all words, but all I got were a zillion posts on pregnancies, nothing about b-complex. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, or if the search function is just mostly useless. Can anyone help me? If you know the answer, or know where I might find the answer?

Thanks!

~Lannie

[SnowHunter (X2 Farm)]

Lannie take this with a grain of salt, but I've given the beef girls b complex shots late in pregnancy with no effects on the pregnancy or calf.

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[wyomama]

The package insert on my bottle doesn't say a thing about pregnant cows.

Do you have ketone strips to check her?

[Lannie]

I don't have any ketone strips. When Bandit weirded out on me last fall I tried to find them and no one seems to even know what they are. I was going to mail-order some, but then I got Bandit fixed up and never did.

This is just a gut feeling. You know what I mean. She did come in earlier when I was out doing something else in the barn, and she seemed OK, so I gave her a flake of hay and she tore into it. Of course, Bandit realized she was missing out and hotfooted it to the barn to help her.

I've mixed up a pail of a few alfalfa pellets, a bunch of beet pulp, two heaping servings of brewer's yeast, a big glob of molasses, some of the Vitamin A, D, E paste, and warm water and I'm taking that out now to see if she'll eat it.

Maybe some would think I'm overreacting, but this was exactly what I felt when Bandit first went off, and I almost lost her because I didn't know what it was. Now I do, so I'm jumping on it. I just can't figure out why she'd be ketotic now. She's dry, so there's no drain from milking, and they're getting EXCELLENT hay. That's another whole story, and there might not be enough of that, but if I have to get grunge hay from somewhere, it'll be going to the horses. I am NOT going to skimp on the cows' hay ever again.

So, it's probably OK then, to give her the b-complex shot if necessary? I hope it's not going to be necessary at this point, but just in case, I'd like to feel confident I'm not going to hurt her baby. I didn't see anything on my bottle about pregnancy one way or the other, so I just wasn't sure.

Thank you!

~Lannie

[Lannie]

Now I'm going to second-guess myself. What else is new?

I just took out the soaked pellets/beet pulp concoction and she hoovered it down. I put her in the stanchion and while she was in there eating, I checked her over for anything I might find odd (nothing), and gave her a good brushing. When she was finished with the mash, she was going after the alfalfa leavings in there from this morning's milking. I let her have some, happy to see her eating, but then decided I'd rather have her eating plain grass hay and backed her out.

As she was turning to get out of the stanchion, she acted funny on her back legs, a little unsteady maybe, or possibly painful. Then it occurred to me that Bandit had a big rainbow across her backside two mornings ago, and I figured she was having her first post-calving heat. I'm wondering now if she didn't maybe jump Cricket and Cricket didn't get out of the way in time and pulled something or knocked something slightly out of whack. That would explain why she's moving "carefully," and why this came on so suddenly two mornings ago.

Well, what I gave her sure won't hurt her, and if she's just got a pulled muscle from a big fat cow jumping on her, I suppose she'll get over it. If it IS an injury, it's not too serious. She has no trouble lying down or getting back up again. The only indication I've had that it might be that is the slow, careful walking, and that second of unsteadiness coming out of the stanchion just now. I know when MY back is hurting, I do everything slow, and I don't feel very good overall.

So go ahead and laugh at me for overreacting again. It's OK.

~Lannie

[Shawn]

It may be something pulled, but based on things you're describing, I'd wonder about precalving MF. Sorry to upset your apple cart again, but...

[Lannie]

Her ears aren't cold. Would they be if that's the case? 'Cause I checked that already. I have NOTHING here for milk fever because neither of the girls have ever had it. But wait, wouldn't she have pre-calving milk fever if she were bagging up? Because she just got dried off, and her udder is totally empty at the moment. I thought MF was something that happened immediately prior, like when they were bagging up, if it was going to happen before calving. Correct me if I'm wrong.

~Lannie

[parndt]

I can't see where it would be a problem and I would also leave out the yeast where she can get to it... wait, hm, Miss Piggy Bandit would get into it too. Well, drat. Maybe just giving it in the treats will be enough. I totally understand and respect the gut feelings. I hope you get things straightened out quickly.

[farmeratheart]

B-vit shot during pregnancy would not be a problem, but the Brewer's Yeast has lots of B vits without the "sting". Minerals can get "stale" especially if they are out in the sun and rain. Baking Soda picks up odors and flavors that might be objectionable. You know your girls, trust your gut, I move slow and careful when I'm sore too,

[wyomama]

Even if she mounted Bandit, she's likely to be a little sore. Relaxin will be starting its work by now, and it's particularly easy to over extend the moving parts.

It also might be the stage of pregnancy. I've noticed that 6 weeks before, cows get very zen and slow and contemplative. I've noticed that if you have a new cow, or a wildish heifer, the 6 week period before they calve is the ideal time to make friends and gentle them down, because they are in a different frame of mind.

We would never laugh at you for taking such good care of our brindle babies!

[lew92]

Hm, Wyomama, you've never met Belle, who is now about three weeks from freshening and is wilder and more ornery than ever!

Lannie, so sorry to come into this so late, but B complex should be just fine. I had a friend who had severe nausea all throughout her pregnancies and the only thing that helped was a shot of B complex. I'm assuming that if it is safe for human fetuses, it would be for cattle, as well.

I hope she starts feeling better soon.

[Shawn]

I'm not sure Lannie, just was thinking about it so thought I'd mention it. The stumbling, unsure stuff brought it to mind. Probably not MF, though since she's further away from calving.

[Lannie]

Thanks, guys, now I have ANOTHER question!

I'm pretty sure it's an injury of some sort now. She came up to the gate this morning and fussed with the latch a little until I tossed a flake to her, then she ate it and laid down to wait for me to finish with Bandit, but when I did, and put hay in the big feeder and opened the gate, she didn't get up. She LOOKED really interested, eyes boring on the feeder, ears forward, but she didn't get up. I waited for a few minutes, then I went and gave a tug on her halter, and she got up.

First she hiked her rear end up, but when she went to get her front feet under her, she could only manage one at first. She paused on one knee for a moment like she was hurting somewhere and needed to gather her courage, then finished heaving herself up. She hitched a big sigh, and started walking into the barn, but she was taking little baby steps. It's a slight uphill slope, so maybe that was giving her trouble. But to me it looks like maybe all four legs are hurting (or hips and shoulders, you know what I mean). So then I thought I should just give her a shot of Banamine and give her a little relief.

Now I get out my bottle of Banamine, and the label says NOT FOR USE IN DRY DAIRY COWS. And that is that. No explanation. It gives withdrawal times for slaughter and milk, then says not to use in dry dairy cows. I can't make that statement make sense. Why would it be OK in lactating cows, but not dry cows? Does anybody know?

God, I hate these cryptic labels.

I checked on her again later in the morning, and she was out with Bandit and Helen, chillin' in the shade. She seems OK, but she was lying down and I didn't make her get up. I could hear her stomach gurgling, although she wasn't cudding at the moment, and her posture seems perfectly normal, no legs sticking out funny or anything. I've just never seen her act this way before, so I automatically think something is wrong. She's only 4, so she's not old. I think she's hurt, but I can't FIND anything wrong with her. There's nothing swollen, nothing hot to the touch, she doesn't flinch when I press her anywhere, and I'm stumped.

If I can't give her Banamine, I'll put some dandelion root in her treats this afternoon. It won't work as fast, but it's an anti-inflammatory, so maybe it will give her some relief later on tonight. If so, I'll just give her some every day for a while.

~Lannie

[SnowHunter (X2 Farm)]

Sounds like she's body sore to me, kinda the way some of the old gals here are when its cold and drizzly. Wonder is the calf is doin somersaults, or she took one heckuva thumpin.

Then again,.Bandit is a rather voloptuous gal, so if she did try and mount Cricket, that would probably cause a good bit of stiffness, even a few days past, I would think

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[Lannie]

Voluptuous! That's one way of putting it!

I can feel the baby rockin' and rollin' in there, but her belly's not overly large. She still does grunt a little when she's lying down, but it's hot again, so that might also be annoying. Bandit was so big before she calved, she sounded like she was DYING every time she laid down, so Cricket's not doin' too bad, considering.

I really should just leave her alone. For myself, I know there's a reason for pain, and that's to make you take care of the injured part and not abuse or overuse it, so I deal with my own pains with that in mind. But when one of my babies is hurting, I want to make it STOP. I just need to leave her alone, and let her heal on her own terms. Some chin scritches now and then will hurry that along, I'm sure.

~Lannie

[lew92]

You're such a good cow momma! Do you have any willow growing on or near your property? We used to feed it to our horse with arthritis and it seemed to help her.

[Lannie]

You know, we did used to have a really nice little willow growing next to the culvert in the ditch, until the idjit neighbor mowed it down when he was cutting the grass for hay. I don't know what he was doing, driving backwards? The tree was about 15 feet tall, kind of hard to mistake it for GRASS. It's been so dry here, though, I doubt it would have survived anyway. There hasn't been any water in the ditch or the culvert all summer.

I'll just keep an eye on her, and try to think how I'd feel if Bandit jumped on MY back. That should put it into perspective for me.

~Lannie

[SnowHunter (X2 Farm)]

Um, do you have any comfrey? Would that help at all? Its stronger then dandelion root ain't it?

I think you're just bein an awesome cow mamma, and after Bandits thing last year, I cannot blame you one bit for bein ever watchful!
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[Lannie]

Comfrey would help IF I could get her to eat it. Neither one of them will touch it. I don't have much, anyway, after all this dry heat. The grasshoppers ate the whole patch, then a new bunch of leaves started but they're still small. I've been more worried about trying to keep the veggie garden going and I've neglected my little comfrey patch. I'm going to move some of the roots this fall if I can, and make another patch in the garden, where it will get regular water and attention. But I'll see if I can hide a few shredded leaves in her treats and maybe, just MAYBE, she won't notice it's there.

~Lannie