*4 Ketosis...now down with MF! (we lost her)

[Jennifer]

After having family cows for many years we unfortunately got our first case of ketosis. This is one of my very best cows and this is her third lactation and she freshened with a lot more milk then last year. Luckily through reading this board I was prepared. The part that I am kicking myself about is DH has been doing chores alone because I have been extremely busy and I don't think he noticed the earliest warning signs. I noticed the smell in the milk and knew right away. Within 12 hours of smelling it in the milk she got significantly worse. I had the B complex on hand so started that at the am milking, then started her on the drench at the pm milking (had to get more molasses). Also in that time she milked normal (in the am) and was totally empty by the pm milking. Not empty like a calf licked her clean but empty like totally soft floppy bag.. nothing. Also by evening she instantly looked significantly thinner. I was shocked at how fast that happened. She looked very good at freshening about 10 days ago. I was proud of her body condition considering our how the winter has been so much colder than usual.

Anyhow, every vet around that I talked to (have several that I've known through life) doesn't have any experience with dairy cows. I heard several times 'you probably know more then I do'. I did pick up a bottle of propylene glycol from one vet to keep on hand (he had it for show sheep) and another vet did some research and suggested Dexamethasone. Is anyone familiar with this? Anyhow I wish there were more vets that had knowledge of dairy cows but we live so close to the city so it's all small pets and horses.

So we gave her grass hay, brome and beet pulp. She still isn't interested in eating or drinking but she does like the drench (Thank you Rena) and is getting it several times throughout the day. I'll do whatever I need to do to keep her alive so if anyone has suggestions, speak up.

A couple side questions, does anybody know if a cow would have a genetic predisposition to ketosis or milk fever? Also is there any research out there about mineral imbalances that would cause ketosis?

Thank you all for always sharing your stories. I rarely comment but always learn.

[Jennifer]

Get this, DH just told me that our neighbor had brought over two round bails of straight alfalfa from his field (we normally only feed round bales of our own mixed hay). DH had put them out last weekend. We usually only feed straight alfalfa in small flakes during milking. I know he didn't mean to make such a knuckle head move. So could giving her such a rich/high protein hay right after freshening have caused this (I'm thinking not enough carbs for calories)?

[barnydhppy]

Yeah, I think you are on the right track as far as high protein vs carb. The other thing is to remember the b complex inj. helps incredibly! (works well in combination with the drench).

I don't know about the Dexamethasone, but my vet did tell me that propylene glycol is very caustic and causes upset stomach on the animals, so I have not used it as my goal is to set the animals up to *want* to eat/drink.

Glad to hear she likes the drench recipe! She'll not be so thrilled with the injections however....(if she is anything like the other critters who have gotten them! Mine included... lol! )

Rena

Oh yes, on the predisposition-I don't know. As far as the mineral question...my input is that anytime you give more of *any* one mineral/vitamin...it does *throw off* the others. For example...if we use the first cutting of hay it is really high in potassium from being fertilized, when I feed it, I get Ketosis in both girls in short order. High potassium causes the magnesium to drop. (it took me two seasons to figure this out) The other one is b 12. I have found the success rate of giving just b 12 to be less than desirable compared to giving *all* the b vits in a complex injection.

[Jennifer]

PM check, she is *lightly* nibbling hay and sipping water. We had to lock her in the barn because she keeps going outside to lay in the misty, drizzly wetness outside.

[barnydhppy]

I have found that if the cow is in Ketosis, you need to give more than molasses to help 'pull her out' of it. If she continues you should see her get completely uninterested in any feed/water, dry manure, depressed and have the opposite of her normal personality (hope that makes sense). If she continues, you might see laboured breathing, possibly grunting, hunching the back, acetone (or medicine) smell to the breath/milk. She can actually have a higher temperature during this as well. (I think Stormy was like 104.)

This can continue to come on really very slowly, and not a quick fix by any measure that I have seen. Although I will add that I've seen over and over again almost immediate improvement with the b vits and drench (whether putting on grain or force feeding with a syringe/baster or gun).

I do hope she improves very soon.
Rena

[Janene]

You are correct about your protein theory. I have a note to myself from the Merck Vet Manual on MF and Ketosis. The Ketosis one says:
Glucose drain to meet lactation requirements. Needs as much as 1 kg (2.2#) of glucose daily from dietary carbohydrates. In a nutshell: yes, its a protein excess in the diet-no balance of the carbs/protein.

Sounds like you are on top of things, keep us updated!
Janene

[Jennifer]

Rena- yes we are still giving the B complex injection and the drench. You only give the B complex 1x per day right? I am giving the drench multiple times per day (she seems to like it) and I put 'Bounce back' in her water. Let me know if this is right. It didn't seem to have as quick of a response as I had hoped.

Janene- my jaw fell when he told me that about the alfalfa. We have never dealt with MF, bloat, or ketosis and I'm afraid he let his guard down. This winter has been so long and the grass hasn't come in (and because they are already used to eating it in squares) he didn't think it would be a problem, would just give them a protein boost. Boy did it. Thanks for letting me know what the Merck says.

I'm off to check on her.

[Jennifer]

she's down with MF. Neck turned to flank. I am on my cell phone and it won't let me go to 911 section. Anybody that sees this and has run an IV please call me! 816-365-3305. Roseanna are you out there?

I won't be able to get back on here til later.

[barnydhppy]

Hey Jennifer,
I give the b vits 1x day, however just read that you can give up to 2 cc per lb of body wt in a day. (which means you can give her 2 shots [am/pm] of about 10cc each.

If it were me/my animals, I would not stop the drench. You can take the magnesium down to 1 tbs if you were giving it. Last I remember, you still needed to get it.

Can you get her temp? (that will really help) Are her ears warm/cold? Is she eating/drinking anything? How is her breathing? Can she get up?

Do you have IV tubing/needle and liquid CMPK? Roseanna's thread on giving it SubQ is great and works very well.

Click Here, Pic Heavy

I'm sorry you/your girl are having such a hard time!

Please keep us updated as you can!

Rena

[Jennifer]

Have internet connection for a quick minute

I followed Roseanna excellent picture tutorial. My vet had previously instructed to give 1.5 bottle IV then 1.5 bottles in the abdomen and when you called to check in (no farm visits here) he told me I had to give her more so we did another bottle in the abdomen.

She started shaking lightly when we started Roseanna's method, is looking around with her eyes (her head is still pulled to her flank) and she is twitching her ears around trying to listen to her calf.

I'll post more when I can get connection later.

Thank you for all the support!!

[barnydhppy]

Good Job Jennifer! Great for getting right on it!!

I would stay with giving it subq as when our vet gave it to Daisy in the abdomen, it didn't help at all. (Not sure why..) I have had GREAT success with Roseanna's method though!

Great Job! Hang in there!!!

Rena ;D

[crowinghen]

Jennifer-

in the skin of the abd is what I did when my goat got MF My Vet said that even if they respond right away to give more than that to really help them through it. It's very caustic, so if possible warm it up to body temp, and use a couple of different areas in the abdomen.

Hang in there-- it sounds like you're doing the right things!!!

hugs, susie

[DostThouHaveMilk]

Way to go Jennifer!
That thread used to have my phone number on it. I should probably get it put back on there for cases like this.
Remember that sub-Q ia a slow release. Hopefully by now you are seeing some more improvement.
My cell number is 740-310-6324
Dad's cell is 609-610-7759
We both keep our cell phones with us most of every day and night.

[Jennifer]

She's still alive, but won't get up.

Again I just have a quick minute but I'm going to try and go over what we did today.

6:45 found her down and called the vets office. Couldn't get anything until 8:30

9:00- followed Roseanna's MF steps. Talked to vet shortly after and he insisted she needed more, give 1 bottle in the abdomen so we did. Drenched her with Rena's drench. She shook a lot and was wiggling around but her head was still curled back.

10:30-11:00- head straighten out. Gave her more drench with some extra calcium. Also drenched her with a couple gallons of water.

1:30- drenched her again with molasses/calcium/water. Still not standing.

2:30- went in the house for lunch and when we came back so had obviously tried hard to move. We had to roll her back onto hay.

3:30- vet called to check in and he said he was going to come out.

4 ish- Vet came, gave her 2 bottles of liquid even though I really, really tried to tell him only one. He said it wasn't enough, period. So she got 2 bottles, a shot of A,D,E and he tried to hot shot her to get up. I was in another stall taking care of another new baby when this happened or I would have freaked. She still wouldn't get up.

6:00- Drenched her with propalyne glycal (I know that isn't spelled right but I'm tired) and we drenched her 3 more gallons of water and gave her more probiotics.

She will not eat anything. She will not drink at all but she will easily swallow when we drench her. She is bright eyed and vary responsive but will not stand. Her head is still straight. We have her very well propped up with square bales. She did pee twice today

The vet said she was going to die and even if she didn't that she wasn't worth keeping because once a cow gets MF they are useless (they will get it every freshing worse and worse).

Please say a prayer for Buttercup.

[DostThouHaveMilk]

Do you have access to hip lifts, or some way to get her standing?
It can be very hard to get a vet to listen. Especially if he assumes once they get MF they always will. It certainly is not the case.
If she is alert, that is good. As long as she is willing to fight, I would definitely fight.
Rena,
I suggested the PG because the few cases of Ketosis I saw at the school responded favorably to it. She likely was going on my recommendation there.

Having a downed cow can be a very rough road to hoe.
I will discuss the case with dad and see wht his reaction is.

[barnydhppy]

Hey Roseanna,
No problem...I hope I didn't offend you, as I wasn't trying to. We are all just trying to help the best we can, ok? ;D Thank you for all your help too!! I really respect how you and your Dad have been doing things!

Hang in there Jennifer!

Rena

[DostThouHaveMilk]

No problem, Rena. I was just trying to point out why she most likely went that route. I know the hesitancy to turn to PG on the board, and understand it.

Jennifer,
I hope things are still going okay with Buttercup.
I just came up from talking to dad. His first comment was keep the vet away. He's done everything in his power to kill your cow.
After four + bottles of calcium, her system is terribly overloaded. We can only hope she has peed out most of it.
If she is still with us come morning (7ish), it would pay to give her *one* bottle sub-Q. No more.
Dad mentioned that with her being alert earlier she likely would have been up within the 12 hour time frame he likes to see with just the one bottle sub-Q.
It was when the vets went to two bottles for Jerseys that they started killing them. Jerseys don't require as much. That was when dad and granddad started treating MF cases themselves.
Most of the calcium liquids used contain some form of sugar. This helps with the Ketosis and it provides energy.
Her system is really out of whack at this stage. So giving it a chance to try and put itself right again is the goal. This means keep her hydrated and giving it a little bit of time. She will eat when she is ready. We've had cows down that would not eat for a day or so. As long as they keep drinking, or taking in water, they can hold on.
I would call, except it is 11Pm there.
If you need to call, anytime day or night, go ahead.

[Rhein-O-Ranch]

All of that garbage about her getting MF more and more is just that.
If you google milk fever you will find articles that tell that there are supplements of an anionic nature that will make the cows leach the calcium from the bones like they are supposed to.
I am using a product called Bio-chlor from Arm and Hammer. It is made with hydrochloric acid and it is supposed to turn their blood and urine acid enough for their bold to readily use the calcium in their bones.
I am feeding this to all of my cows 3 weeks prior to calving. unfortunately the first cow that we fed it to didn't like it. So it didn't do any good. I am now feeding it to our Holstein heifer that is due on the 1st. She thinks it is candy....Go figure.
Keep your head up. But remember that no matter what happens you are doing everything possible.

[DostThouHaveMilk]

Quakerfarmer posting under "dostthouhavemilk"'s label: Jennifer, I certainly hope thy cow is starting to recover by now. Reading Roseanna's post, I may have reacted a bit strongly when she was telling me the story, but I have strong feelings in regard to Milk Fever. There seems to be a common belief that it is one of the worst things that can happen (I recently had a prospective buyer that was hesitant about Jerseys because "they were prone to milk fever".) So what? It's no biggee if treated sensibly.
I did become distraught when I heard that the cow had received 4 bottles of calcium in about 12 hours, and one of them IP (in the gut). I realize that IP has its place, and is not necessarily a disaster, but it is far riskier in terms of systemic infections than sub-Q, and can lead to scarring which is problematic if the cow ever ends up with twisted stomach. The biggest concern to me with over-treatment is that the body's regulatory system gets even more confused and throws off all the "extra" calcium, in effect starting the cycle all over again but in ever increasing swings. It sounds like she was already well on the way to recovery when she got retreated.
Sub-Q is "slower" in terms of standing up, and so does require patience and attention, but that is why it works well for those who pay attention to the individual cows. I understand why vets use IV--they are often faced with clients who want to see results. In the old days the vet couldn't leave the farm till the cow got up, which was why the IV and the hotshots. Usually that treatment also worked, and the cow would be fine. It was only when the vets started putting a second bottle in our cows "so they wouldn't have to come back later" that the cows started relapsing and dying.
We do occasionally treat a cow sub-Q a second time, if she hasn't gotten up in 12 hours and is showing muscle weakness in the front end, or if she is not at least able to sit up after about six hours. However, if she is sitting up and looking alert after six hours, she is probably going to be okay. It's just a matter of watching if she is on a hillside (about all we have around here) because her first few attempts to get up may be a little shaky, and she could get in a bad way.
When thee speaks of "we had to roll her back onto the hay" I have a small concern. We learned the hard way that if one literally "rolls" the animal (i.e. flip the legs over and roll her on her back) one can inadvertently twist the stomach. It is a lot harder to "scootch" the animal, but probably much safer. This may not be what thee was talking about, but thought I ought to mention it for others, as someone who has done it wrong in the past.
Roseanna indicated that I suggested another treatment in the morning--not quite what I meant. I was just hoping for nothing more to the system before morning. Give the girl a chance to figure out what a stable blood level is. It depends so much on her mental attitude, and especially on whether she can sit comfortably on her own. If she can't then probably yes.
Incidentally, the quivering after the IP dose they always told us was the calcium hitting the system and firing up the muscles--supposedly a good sign with the expectation that they would get better soon.
To reinforce what others have said here, one milkfever case is not a death sentence. we have had individual cows which were prone to milkfever, but since we knew that, we watched extra close. Others would have one case and never again. We have seldom seen it in first calf heifers, but even that rule of thumb got broken once. It tends to seem to have more to do with weather conditions during the previous year than anything else--if one farmer around here was having alot of cases, so were most of the others. We just emphasis "watching for the wobble" and catching it early and not real aggressively. The atypical cases (after 48 hours) are trickier to catch. Apparently most of those are the result of a stomach upset that produces sudden scouring, which depletes the calcium. Another lesson I learned the hard way.
Way to much information, which I why I seldom post.
I certainly hope the cow is doing better in the morning, and all this information can be filed in the back of the mind for sometime faaaar in the future.
Thomas

[Jennifer]

she's gone