Experienced horsepeople - horse issue UPDATE

[Shawn]

My farrier has graciously agreed to loan us another horse to use. As some may remember, we had her 30 year old QH that we put down in March due to cancer/liver issues.
Anyway, we went to ride with her on Sunday. She has a 10 year old QH mare who is a gorgeous palomino. She comes rated as really solid, not stupid and willing to go just about wherever you ask. She probably had not been ridden in one year.
I took my 12 yo DD's saddle that she rides in, which is an Abetta flex tree, with a string girth (not roping girth) and a nylon tie strap. We rode for about 1 mile and I heard DD say something. Looked back and DD was standing on the ground and horse looked to be having a seizure. Then realized she was just trying to roll and did roll entirely over with the saddle on. Got everyone straightened out and proceeded again. Kudos to DD for getting back on.
Then about another two miles goes by and she does it again. This time I was behind her and saw her lay down. Almost got DD's leg and then she got away from her. Poor DD got back and just burst into tears. (This is the same kid that would not get back on the old QH we put down because he cantered with her and she thought he was running away with her. )
So anyway, after much coaxing and my insistence, I put her on my mare, who is kid safe in a group and I rode Rikki, the palomino back to the house. No further incidents.

My farrier, who has owned her I believe since she was born, was dumbfounded. She had no history of doing that or anything. We all discussed the saddle, girth, etc. Finally think it's the girth, that she's used to a roping girth. She has offered to bring her usual saddle that she rides her in to leave it with me.

I talked to another horse friend this morning and she emphatically said it's the tree on the saddle is pinching her. She noted she had calm, completely sane horses buck out their back feet or roll to get an uncomfortable saddle off. So she thinks that's the only problem.
I tend to agree that it's something with the saddle and she'd be fine.

We have our yearly campout/ride this weekend. I need her to ride this horse. The issue becomes DD is completely opposed to EVER getting back on her. I threw out the idea last night that my sister would ride her Sat. morning (DD is playing VB anyway) and then she could ride her in the afternoon if there were no further problems. I got a finger in my face saying "I am NOT ever riding that horse."
I would let her ride my mare, who is spunky but would be fine in a group and on the trail. But she isn't real happy about that, either. She's scared and regressing to her "safe" horse. Unfortunately I need that horse for my 7 YO DD.

What do you all think about the diagnosis and how do I get this kid back on the horse?

[rezzfullacres]

I am not sure it is either the saddle or the girth. The horse only rolled with your daughter not you..Same saddle Same girth, what was different.......... the rider was......Maybe your daughter does not have the confidence for this particular horse, the horse can sense it and is taking advantage of her...I have seen it before...If she had not been ridden in a year maybe you should ride her a bit to work out any kinks in her and reenforce the fact that the rider is the boss not the horse,....

[jerseycowgirl]

I think it could very well be the saddle. I was riding a colt one time with a smaller saddle, and he kept jumping around, so we put a different saddle on him and his attitude completely changed.
I have had a horse go down and try to roll with me on him, but decided that he was hot and sweaty because it was a warm spring day and he still had his heavy winter coat on. He's never done it since.
Perhaps you could have your DD do some ground work with the horse, work it some in the round pen, this could build her confendence seeing that she can control the horse from the ground. then maybe ride the horse in the round pen, moving it through the walk, trott, lope, backing, turning, ect. Just some ideas
Pam

[Jerseylady*Heather*]

Have you looked in to HYPP it is common in quarter horses and sounds a lot like what you are describing. If she has impressive in her pedigree he is the carrier.

[serendipity]

It could be the saddle, but my first guess would be saddle blanket or cinch.
If she's never done it before, it's probably not an attitude thing. A horse will roll when itchy, especially if sweaty because that increases the itchiness.

I would assume that you weigh more than your DD. So if the saddle were pinching, it would pinch more with you in the saddle not less. But greater weight would press down and effectively "loosen" the cinch and would also put more pressure on the saddle blanket which would make it feel less itchy.

Do you know how to check a saddle for fit? Always check fit without a pad or blanket of any kind so you can see what's actually happening. Make sure that there is a couple inches of clearance between her withers and the gullet of the saddle. Remember to put weight on the saddle them slide your hand along under it to see if it is bridging anywhere.

It might be good to give her a bath, or at least her barrel, to make sure she doesn't have a lot of sand in her coat or a scratch or something that could bother her. And wash the blanket and cinch too.

I'm know how hard it is to get a kids comfortable with horses again once they've had a bad experience. (I teach riding lessons.) I've had the best luck with trying to get the child to sympathize with the horse. "Oh, poor horse--she was so itchy and uncomfortable. She wasn't trying to hurt you, she was just so itchy that she had to scratch." etc. etc.

Good luck with everything and I hope you get it figured out. Keep us posted!

[Shawn]

Sept 20, 2011 12:20:30 GMT -5 Jerseylady*Heather* said:

Have you looked in to HYPP it is common in quarter horses and sounds a lot like what you are describing. If she has impressive in her pedigree he is the carrier.

Ok I looked up HYPP. Had never heard of that before. I don't know her pedigree, I'd have to ask. Her registered name is Winchester's Ricochet, they call her Rikki for short. So I'll ask the owner about that. That's scary.

rezzful: I only rode her about 150 yards, so wasn't surprised that nothing happened on my turn.

No, I don't know much about checking a saddle for fit, but the gal that owns her does. We looked at this saddle extensively for her old horse and it would not fit him. We found another that would and he had a special pad. So I rely on her judgment for that stuff.
We did have her bridle that she's used to.
It was also mentioned that she has been ridden in only one particular saddle the entire time they've ridden her.

I will also ask if our saddle pad is similar to the one she had and if not see if we can get her blanket, too. Maybe she's allergic to wool like I am. ;D

Serendipity: Thanks for the tip on kids. I had thought of something along that line. So I need to make sure that is the issue before I start working on her.

[Shawn]

Sept 20, 2011 13:24:22 GMT -5 serendipity said:

I would assume that you weigh more than your DD. So if the saddle were pinching, it would pinch more with you in the saddle not less.

I do outweigh her by about 50 pounds. But I do not understand the mechanics of an Abetta flex tree saddle. If someone out there does, please explain it to me. I would think if the tree is meant to flex, wouldn't it "open" up more??

[Bobbie]

Shawn this is a good web site that explains flex trees pretty well.
www.horsesaddleshop.com/flex-trees-101.html
As far as getting your older daughter to ride I'd go with letting her ride the horse she is most comfortable with and see about getting the younger one on a different one. I'm afraid that if you get her on one she doesn't feel "safe" on she may never want to ride again. I hope not but this happened to my grand daughter and it took a very long time before she would even look at a horse again. Good luck and have fun on your ride.
Bobbie

[marseydoats]

"nylon tie strap"

Ok -do you mean a breast collar, or a tie down? A LOT of horses will lie down if you put a tie down on them. If she rolled all the way over on the saddle, there's a good possibility she could have broken the tree.
Is this mare used to kids? Horses have preferences, just like people. I've known more than a few of them who would not let a kid ride them.

[melly90]

Could you put another experienced child on her and see how she reacts?

It would be strange if it were the tack as someone said she didn't do it with you. Maybe you could try a treeless saddle and see if you like it, I have one and I'd never go treed again.

Was this horse ever taught tricks? I know of a few horses who were taught to lie down and sometimes did this knowing they would get out or work/ it would get rid of the rider. Not likely but possible.

[Heidi]

Hi,
I haven't read all the posts.. a bit time poor at the moment. There may be three reasons...
1. The saddle... your daughter is obviously lighter than you are, so perhaps your additional weight (or perhaps more politely put, you daughter's lack of weight) may position the saddle different across the back or the wither. Same saddle, same girth, different effect due to redistribution of weight.

2. The saddle/girth/saddle blanket was annoying her, and after she rolled two times, the horse had the problem fixed, just in time for you to get on her and have her behave well.

3. Behavioural... my horse did this same thing occasionally, until I learnt to boss her around. Eventually, she figured out that she was going to cop it across the rump from me if she tried it on, and she stopped doing it.

How to get your daughter over this hurdle? That's a harder one to answer. Forcing her on the horse would undoubtedly be counterproductive... pick your battles. Is there any way she can miss out on the trail ride? It is her choice not to get back on the horse after all (I do understand though that this could inconvenience the whole family, or not even be possible).

Can the 7yo ride the "rolling" horse and she ride the other horse (have I got that right or am I mistaken)?

Anyway, I do hope it works out for you all.

H

[petey]

Sounds to me like a gentle old horse who is taking advantage of your passive daughter. We had a pony that would do this with regularity to one daughter, but never to ANYone else. She needs a different gentle horse, in my opinion and let someone who can be a little more aggressive with their leg to ride this one.

[Deanna]

Tack issue. Horse was pinched. Could be saddle or girth. I have had issues with some of the string girths pinching. Different rider weights and also centering of weight, may need different tack. If she rides with more weight on one side it can cause pinching, so rider skill needs for different tack.
Your daughter needs to get back on a horse or her riding issues will get worse. Need to find a really slow easy riding horse for her to deal with her fear of falling issues.

[Shawn]

Sept 20, 2011 20:24:30 GMT -5 marseydoats said:

"nylon tie strap"

Ok -do you mean a breast collar, or a tie down? A LOT of horses will lie down if you put a tie down on them. If she rolled all the way over on the saddle, there's a good possibility she could have broken the tree.
Is this mare used to kids? Horses have preferences, just like people. I've known more than a few of them who would not let a kid ride them.

cinch strap is what I was trying to say. I'm not great on my technical terms. No breast collar, no tie down.

How would I tell if the tree is broken?

I'll have to ask if a kid has ever ridden her.

I am pitching ideas to DD, but she's not bending a whole lot.
After she rode the big gelding (Poco) and he cantered down the trail (to catch up with other riders) she never would get back on him. It took me several months of her refusing to ride at all, then I coaxed her back on her "safe" horse, Candy, by telling her she could use my Abetta saddle since her legs had gotten almost too long for her junior saddle, but that she had to ride Candy because it wouldn't fit Poco. So that let her save her pride because her little sister was riding Poco and absolutely loving him.
And then a month ago at a softball party they had horses and the kids were riding in the round pen. She got on a big roping gelding and asked to be let out of the round pen. They let her ride him around all over the yard and she was trotting a strange horse! So I don't think she'd object to getting back on Candy, I just need my 7 yo on Candy. I'm going to suggest she ride my mare this weekend and then we'll go from there.
Thanks for all the ideas, I'll be testing Rikki out tonight or tomorrow in her correct saddle.

[marseydoats]

If the tree is broken it will have WAY too much "bend" to it. You'd probably have to take it to a good saddle fitter to get an honest opinion (if you take it to a tack store some people would tell you it was broken, just so they could try and sell you another saddle)
A fiberglass treed saddle very seldom will survive being rolled on (exceptions to everything), but I live on solid granite, and I have my doubts about an old roping saddle with a heavy wooden tree lasting here. Of course, all my riding horses weigh over a ton.
A horse that has had an entire year off could be expected to act up. After a few weeks of adults riding her, she may be fine --- or she may be worse. She may have just decided that she wants to be a pasture ornament.
Good luck!

[Shawn]

Well I picked up the saddle tonight that she's used to having. I talked with Benny, her owner. Benny said she has had lots of kids on her and never acted up. She was very interested in all your comments. Said she couldn't sleep that night for fear she had set my DD back in her riding confidence.
I told her I really feel it's a tack issue and we can remedy that real quick. We'll have her tested out thoroughly this weekend for sure.

As far as the tree being broken, I'd say it's probably ok. I didn't notice anything when I took it off, but I will inspect it closer. Also, she rolled the first time in the grassy edge of a field and I don't think she went clear over there. The second time she rolled in the very soft dirt of a soybean field where we had had two inches of rain the night before. (as an aside, you can sure tell you're dry when a horse walking through a plowed field after two inches of rain, leaves only about an inch indention).

[Shawn]

We took her out this weekend and my sister rode her twice on Saturday. No issues with the saddle or rolling, however, her nick name must be "boo-boo" as in "ouch."
Her nose piece rubbed three sores on her nose. Her saddle raised a lump on her back almost at her rump (braided spot on the saddle that she could apparently feel through her blanket.) She nicked her front leg right above the hoof, bled slightly. She hit her back leg in her chronic swollen hock on a log and I know she felt that, although it didn't make her favor it at all later. My sister did say she paid better attention after that to where she was going. Seems she's somewhat of a Nosy Nelly and likes to look at everybody/thing besides where she's going. And she rope burned herself when the owner was getting her shoes on her front feet before we left.
She rode fine, not even a hint at rolling or anything, so that issue was obviously the saddle. After she started paying attention to where she was going, she settled down nicely. She is a really smooth ride. She does great on a picket line and has bonded to my more dominant mare that I ride. We switched bridles for the afternoon ride to the one she wore last weekend. We noticed then why she was throwing her head last weekend, it's too tight. So instead of having a head band, we turned it into a single ear loop and she liked that much better and was perfectly fine, no head tossing in the afternoon. That got her out of the bridle that was rubbing her nose. Luckily the owner sent me with two to choose from.
I have come to the conclusion after last night noticing she nicked herself yet in another spot on a leg, that palominos must be thin skinned and sensitive. Or she is just a klutz.
My DD rode on Sunday, the other horse she likes. We made my younger DD just sit it out back at camp with my sister and the boo-boo horse. So other than that, we had a fun weekend and safe enjoyable rides. The weather was perfect.

[Heidi]

Glad it worked out... well sort of worked out anyway! Yes, some horses are just like people (or should I say, just like me!)... somewhat spatially challenged... things are closer than what they appear!

H

[elnini]

DH's horse was like that, looking everywhere but at what she was about to trip over or bump into, perpetually scrapes and bumps.

There's probably excercises that can work on their body awareness, and the ground work side might be good for your daughter to do with her ?

[suzorse]

pole work is supose to help with the looking where her feet are, trotting over poles on the ground , to check a tree put the saddle down on the horn /swells and press on the cantle, if you can feel it give it is broke, you will need to add another pad or a thicker one for the other saddle, so you do not get saddle sores Suzanne