Disappointing response on zucchini salsa

[zuranch]

well as suggested, I did contact our area "expert: PHD at U of Idaho...Extennsion Food Safety Specialist School of Family and Consumer Sciences...and the news is not good for my salsa and I am very sad about it...to top it off...she didn't have encouraging things to say about the original recipe that I found on this site for the Zucchini salsa. I am going to copy/paste the email here and let you all read it for yourselves and make your own conclusions. Appreciate any thoughts/feedback.

Now I have to decide what to do with it all....even the original batches that followed the recipe to the T. I was going to give them as x-mas gifts or housewarming gifts. now I have a moral dilema. email next...her response is first followed by my original question:::::

Hi Heather,

I do have concerns about the safety of your tweaked zucchini salsa
recipe. First, as far as I know, there are no research-tested-for-
safety zucchini salsa recipes. However, University of Idaho
Extension does have a research-tested Pickled Bread-and-Butter
Zucchini recipe, that uses 4 cups of vinegar (5%) to 16 cups of
sliced zucchini and 4 cups of sliced onions.

I am glad you realize vinegar is key to making a safe boiling-water-
bath canned product. By lowering the vinegar amount, you may be
risking botulism.

I am willing to test one of your jars for pH (acidity). However,
this will not prove that your recipe is safe. When research-based
canning recipes are developed, the research involves many
replications of the recipe, including alterations of the recipe
within the range expected of common consumer practice and ingredient
variation. Processing is done with innoculated packs to determine
the processing times are adequate. And, the recipe includes a margin
of safety. That kind of work is quite expensive and requires
specialized equipment. I am unable to conduct this type of canning
recipe development.

One other concern with your recipe is that the zucchini is shredded.
Most canning recipes do not use a shredded vegetables because it
substantially increases the density of the product (as compared to
slices) and thus increases required process time.

It may be best to freeze your tweaked zucchini salsa recipe.

Sandy

On 5 Sep 2007 at 14:49, zuranch wrote:

> Sandra
> topic is canning and botulism
>
> I have been canning a zucchini salsa that has been "tested and true". Since
> following the recipe...which makes 14 pints total
> and includes:
> 10C shredded zucchini
> 1 diced red pepper
> 3 C diced onion
> 3 red peppers
> 4 jalapeno's diced
> ALL mixed together with 5 T salt over night.
> then rinced and cooked and has other ingredients added to it. Of importance
> cider vinegar, sugar and other stuff
> I know that the vinegar is key to pickling things and avoiding botulism.
>
> Since making the first batch, I have been "tweaking it" to make it even more
> delicious. My question finally comes down to...
> when tweaking...and lowering the vinegar quantity...am I putting myself at
> risk for botulism. When I have lowered the vinegar
> amount, I have doubled the fresh tomato amount to compensate.
>
> I live at 3000 elevation and have been hot water bath canning the pints for
> 30 minutes...hot packed into boiled pint jars.
>
> Is there a way of testing acidity in salsa recipe like this to know if there
> is enough acid to avoid botulism?
>
> I apologize in advance if some of this is confusing and I do not make sense.
> wouldnt' be the first time.
> I appreciate anything you have to offer to help calm my paranoid fears. I
> have finally come up with a batch of salsa
> that is very altered from the original one and it is FANTASTIC. but...I
> don't want to risk the chance of makign someone ill
> or worse.
>
> I thank you for your time.
> best,
> Heather
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sandra McCurdy" <[e-mail]>
> To: "zuranch" <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: can I ask you a ?
>
>
> > Hi Heather,
> >
> > I'd be glad to answer your question.
> >
> > Sandy McCurdy
> >
> > On 4 Sep 2007 at 15:01, zuranch wrote:
> >
> >> I was wondering if I could ask you a personalized question about canning
> >> and the acidity level and possibility of botulism.
> >> I will not write the question until I get permission from you to ask.
> >> thank you kindly,
> >> Heather
> >
> >
> > Sandra M. McCurdy, Ph.D.
> > Extension Food Safety Specialist
> > School of Family and Consumer Sciences
> > University of Idaho
> > P.O. Box 443183
> > (103C Niccolls Building)
> > Moscow, ID 83844-3183
> > 208-885-6972 Fax: [phone]
> >
> >
> >
>
>


Sandra M. McCurdy, Ph.D.
Extension Food Safety Specialist
School of Family and Consumer Sciences
University of Idaho
P.O. Box 443183
(103C Niccolls Building)
Moscow, ID 83844-3183
208-885-6972 Fax: [phone]

[Liz]

If you are going to eat the salsa in the next few months, keep it in the fridge or freezer. Serve it at home over the holidays. If you send it or give it away folks may forget it in their car for weeks, or whatever--this way you control what happens to it.
I bet if you asked her about raw milk her response would be even worse than how "dangerous" your salsa is.
If you are freaked out about her response, feed it to the pigs or chickens or throw it away. Otherwise, enjoy the product you made, just keep it refrigerated.

[zuranch]

Liz...good point on the raw milk. I am going to see how freezing it goes. But now that I think about it..I have two extra refrigerators that can certainly hold the salsa.

sigh...deep breath...oh to be me :))

[Lesli]

Would the recipe taste yuck to just boil it for 10 min after opening? Might be nicer in the winter to serve it "hot" anyway. But I am not an expert on canning by any means, so would this be safe enough to just boil it 10 min? Any of you Canning Experts out there?

[DanMa]

Ditto about Liz' raw milk comment. That will tell you where this person is coming from.

[simplynaturalfarm]

out of curiosity, how do you eat this salsa? like normal salsa?
Heather

[zuranch]

yes, I eat it like normal salsa. every batch I have made has been STELLAR. I never realized the "danger" of tweaking canning recipes. Have since found out that yes...I can boil each jar I open for 10 minutes and then be safe. Would imagine the texture would change drastically. Have also freezed it. Yet to thaw it and eat to see how it changes it.

[Jenn]

I once talked to an extension agent who had done her own canning for years. Off the record, she had quite a few opinions about the new canning rules.
-Jenn

[Vanessa]

Hey there! ;D
Not sure if I can be of much help, but these thoughts come to mind....
Could you dip an acidity test strip in one jar and see what the acidity comes to and then compare to the acidity it takes to kill a botulism spore (there has to be some data on that floating around somewhere! ) I do know that different tomatoes vary in acidities, so adding the extra tomato sauce can either be helping-or hindering...
Also, I have to say, that the lady I originally got the recipe from was an old old ex-boyfriend's mom, and she is still making it w/o hot water processing it at all, and keeping it all winter and using it, and so far they are all still alive... She just became a grandma recently actually!
However, I totally understand your paranoia, b/c I was the same way with the first batch I made, so I heat processed it, but then it was mushy, so I sent a copy of the recipe to the bernardin site and they helped me revamp it for heat processing....
Would love to see directions for the altered recipe....
Anyways, my thoughts....
Vanessa

[Vanessa]

Here is some interesting info from wikipedia.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum
In the United States, outbreaks are primarily due to types A or B, which are found in soil, or type E, which is found in fish. Optimum temperature for types A and B is 35-40 °C. Minimum pH is 4.6. It takes 25 min at 100 °C to kill these types. Optimum temperature for type E is 18-25 °C. Minimum pH is 5.0. It takes about 0.1 minute at 100 °C to kill type E C. botulinum.

Growth of the bacterium can be prevented by high acidity, high ratio of dissolved sugar, high levels of oxygen, or very low levels of moisture

On the other hand, tomatoes or tomato sauce are sufficiently acidic to prevent growth; even if the spores are present, they pose no danger to the consumer. Honey, corn syrup, and other sweeteners may contain spores but the spores cannot grow in a highly concentrated sugar solution; however, when a sweetener is diluted in the low oxygen, low acid digestive system of an infant, the spores can grow and produce toxin. As soon as infants begin eating solid food, the digestive juices become too acidic for the bacterium to grow.



So I would think that if the PH was less than 4.5 you should be ok... You can get PH strips off ebay if you can't find them any where else-also helpful for use in making cheese....

Here's another site...
missvickie.com/canning/canning%20errors.html

Also, just for interests sake, I found this site....
www.cals.wisc.edu/sciencereport/2006itsNotAboutTheWrinklesNonGratis.html

I won't add in my opinion on how most food safety specialists view raw milk.... ;D
HTH!
Vanessa

Ps Another thought is-maybe you could use citric acid instead of vinegar to preserve the taste you have worked out....

[DanMa]

For canning (hot water bath) tomatoes that are low in acidity, I was always told to add a tablespoon of lemon juice.