G-11 Hot Udder Help.

[beth70]

Hi everyone,

This looks like such a great forum. I have been reading and reading and learning so much and I hate to sign up with a problem, but ...

My sweet cow who has never kicked me a day in her life has a very hot udder which is clearly sore and tender, so she spent a lot of time kicking during today's milking.

I can live with the kicking as I know it's just because of her discomfort, but I am concerned about her udder and what I ought do.

I didn't milk her this last week as I needed a health break, so left her calf on her the whole week. He is usually with her during the day and separated at night so I didn't expect there to be any problems, there hasn't been in the past.

So I'm not sure what's up. I'm wondering whether he has been too rough with her and grazed her teats. But would this cause a hot and sensitive udder? There did not seem to be any issue with the little milk I got from her today. There was no stringyness or lumpy bits and it tasted sweet as normal, although hot. Could it be mastitis? Would mastitis cause her udder to be sensitive to the touch?

I'm not sure what to do now. If she has cut teats I ought keep her calf away and hand milk her until she's healed, right? But if she has mastitis, her calf will do better with her than I will, perhaps under supervision.

I don't really think she has mastitis, I think it's probably the calf and his unrestrained access, but the heat of her udder is bothering me.

Can anyone suggest a course of action for me to take? Your advice would be most appreciated.

Beth.

[Becky]

Does she actually have some cuts on her teats? Really, that shouldn't cause tender, hot, swollen udder, at least I wouldn't *think* so, anyway. I think I would start with some extra milkings and peppermint or cayenne/lard udder rub. What is her temperature? If you have the mastitis test card or the CMT test I would do either one or both of those just to see. I *sounds* like you a are starting in with mastitis, but I am no pro, that is for sure.....

Oh, and welcome to the board

Becky

[Janene]

Heat usually means infection/injury. Maybe the calf butted her udder extra hard to make it swollen (like a sprained ankle?)??
Have you tasted milk from each quarter? That will help 'pin down' which one(s) are having an issue. (Salty, or "flat" tasting--you'll know!!)
And yes, welcome. We all need help sometimes--and that's why we are here!
Janene

[frogHOLR]

Welcome to the forum Beth!

I guess my quetions would be:

How old is the calf?
It sounds as if you have left him on her for 24+ hours in the past without problems?
Is it all 4 quarters that are affected, or just one or two?
Is she giving her 'normal' amount of milk when you milk her?
Does she have a fever?

These will help us to get a better picture of your situation.

[beth70]

Hi again,
Thank you all so very much for your responses.

She has mastitis in at least three of her quarters. One is very enlarged and hard, kind of swollen but not at all soft. The others are all of a normal size and soft right through. She seems a little less tender today as she let me massage her udder and place hot cloths on it.

Now that I have that one quarter that is so large and hard to compare with the others, I'm looking back and thinking that it has seemed a little hard and enlarged for a while. I'm wondering if something has been brewing and I never noticed before, thinking it was normal.

Yes I have often left the calf on her for extended periods and have not had problems before. It's just unlucky this time. It's been raining a lot here lately - maybe she laid in some muck or ... who knows. I haven't milked her out since I returned home as the calf has been with her to keep her milked out, but I suspect her production may be a little lower than usual.

I have been in contact with our local vet today and he is preparing some antibiotics for her (the type squeezed into the teat and massaged into the udder) as well as an anti-inflammatory/pain killing injection to help.

I'm relieved that I know what is wrong now, but I'm feeling very nervous about treating her. In my mind I think I will be able to do it, but getting out there and giving her her first jab and squeezing in that first tube is going to worry me.

... but that's why we have cows right? to make life interesting and stretch us past what we thought we could do?

[frogHOLR]

Oct 20, 2010 20:39:44 GMT -5 beth70 said:

Hi again,

... but that's why we have cows right? to make life interesting and stretch us past what we thought we could do?

Excellent outlook Beth! You can do it! I've been doctoring animals for decades and I still get a little shaky when push comes to shove and I really have to get hard-core involved in their treatment! If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

[Shawn]

Don't be nervous about the teat infusions, most cows don't even notice those.

I'm a horrible nurse, so I've given many poor shots. One tip TJ from this board gave me was to lay over the neck of the cow (her head caught in the head catch) and give the shot on the opposite side so you don't lose your "stick." Now, WATCH your feet, she may shuffle toward you. If she can move forward and back, you should stick her closer to the shoulder than head, so that she doesn't scrape your hand and the syringe off if she lunges forward. (That really depends more on your setup.)
Also my nurse SIL suggested getting the "lock" kind of syringes, so it doesn't separate your needle from syringe when she moves around. These 2 things helped me a lot. (I'm still a horrid shot-giver, though)

[frogHOLR]

Great advice, Shawn!!! Only, I don't recommend laying over the shoulder of a Holstein or Brown Swiss unless you are unusually TALL!! You could get tossed into the air like a rodeo clown!

[beth70]

Hi again,

I picked up the meds from the vet last night but by the time I got home it was too dark to do anything so I just checked her out and rubbed some menthol chest rub on her udder again. Her calf had been keeping her milked out which is good and her udder was not hot any more, just a normal temp. Her milk veins were rather enlarged, though that makes sense. Does a cow's lymph system run with the veins too?

This morning I have checked her again and things are still improving. She is looking more like her normal perky self and wasn't bothered at all by me washing he udder down or fiddling around down there either. Her udder is soft all through and a normal temperature still. I tasted each quarter of milk, one is fine (99% sure) two are very mildly salty (I think) and one is still a bit salty, but not vile like it was yesterday (instant spit reaction vile ).

I have decided at the moment to not start treating her with the antibiotics as she seems to be improving so much. This means I can keep the calf on her all day again. If I did start the antibiotics I would have to do all three teats as her calf would have to be separated and wouldn't keep the milk moving, but I'm not sure all the bad quarters warrant the treatment now. I'll check her again tonight and see how things are going.

Please, someone tell me, is this a terrible plan? I've read many threads on the board about non-medicated treatments for mastitis and cows that recover just fine, so I'm hoping Bessie will be the same. Is she likely to have a reoccurring problem with mastitis if I don't use the antibiotics? Could there still be bacteria hanging about that will resurface?

I'm comforting myself with the thought that I have the medication on hand now, so if things start to go terribly wrong all of a sudden I can treat her immediately. But honestly, I think she is over the worst of it.

Thank you.

[frogHOLR]

Not sure if it's comforting, but I'd do EXACTLY what you are doing Beth! I avoid antibiotics as much as possible but I know what you mean about feeling better now that they are in your house! I think with continued care from you and constant emptying from the calf, she'll be fine.

There's the belief that those who get a disease and beat it are more likely to keep it at bay in the future as their immune response is ready and waiting. Those that use antibiotics sometimes find that when they stop treatment, the cootie is still there, and the antibiotics might have done nothing at best, or created a resistant bug at worst. It's a personal call on your part which you'd rather do - play it out and see what happens, or be proactive. I'm a wait and see kind of girl . . . .

[Shawn]

Do you have tea tree oil, or something with that in it? I'd put a teaspoon or so in a little oil (olive, coconut, etc) and rub it all over the affected quarter(s). I've had really good response with this, if things are already improving. Sounds like she and the calf are getting it sorted out with some help from you.
Frogholr: I don't recommend laying over the back of ANY cow unless they're caught in a head catch.

[beth70]

It has now been a week since I first realized Bessie had mastitis. Despite her dramatic improvement towards the end of last week, she was still salty in at least one quarter, enough so that it was obvious, and perhaps still very mildly in one or two other quarters when I checked on her this afternoon. Unfortunately I tasted the worst quarter first - perhaps I needed to "cleanse my palate" before tasting the other quarters. I will check carefully again tomorrow morning as over the weekend DH, who has very particular taste buds gave three out of four quarters a pass.

It now looks as though I will have to use the antibiotics after all. I'm feeling a little down about it as it seemed that the mastitis would clear on its own. I really prefer to avoid the antibiotics if possible.

Unless there are other suggestions lurking out there that I haven't tried, I propose to start the antibiotics tomorrow morning as it doesn't seem sensible to allow the infection to continue to hang around without continued improvement. At least I am in a better state of mind to do the doctoring now.

[beth70]

Hi all,
Just a little update ... A week has gone by since I gave Bessie the antibiotics for mastitis so I was looking forward to milking her again this morning and having some fresh milk again instead of the frozen milk we have been drinking.

Bessie wasn't though. I had to bring her in to be milked (she usually just walks straight in) and then she kicked and carried on and did not want me to touch her at all. I wish I didn't have such a smart cow who remembered things. I yelled at her when she started kicking, but that frightened her, another mistake on my part. The I started talking softly to her then and trying to repair my damage, I guess only time will tell. She doesn't trust me now.

I feel so sad and discouraged. DH told me not to take such little cow issues to heart, but I always do. I know you all will understand. What if she never loves me again? I don't want to have a disharmonious relationship with my cow.

So now I have to start rebuilding. I'm hoping that quiet consistency will work and that she will stop kicking. I don't want to always have to use a leg rope! I feel like giving up, but that's not realistic - I couldn't bear the guilt of ruining a lovely milk cow, so I press on. I don't know how those of you with real cow problems do it. I don't have the stamina. :-(

[Janene]

Its called Tough Love. The cow might be sensitive, but it sounds like she was sulking at your yelling. My cow knows she's in trouble when I yell, so she'd best knock off whatever she is doing to tick me off. (Kicking is a big no-no, a loud reminder comes first, and/or a smack on the leg.) If she doesn't "get the picture", well, she's had her chance to correct her actions, and I take further action, like you and use some type of rope/hobble.

This is how they learn when you are upset with their behavior. Yelling or loud talk is to get their attention. (strike one!) A smack on the leg (strike two!) will be the last reminder. 'Cause if she gets to strike three, she's OUT and I get tough.
It usually takes 2-3 times of this for them to understand the "strike" steps. They like things peaceful, just like we do. Sometimes a little "attitude adjustment" is in order to make them understand if they do what WE want, milk time can be blissful for the both of us.

Causing physical harm really doesn't do the cow any good but make her wary of people. (I'm talking a beating here, not a smack on the leg....) So to get them to understand YOU are the boss and in control, there are plenty of "tricks" you can use like I suggested. I will say, some cows are more defiant (stubborn) and will take longer to submit. I know people that don't need a kick-stop anymore, but still use it as part of the routine......the cow is used to it, so it just goes on at milking time.

And no, you haven't "ruined" her. Let her sulk, just like a little kid, it's all the good it will do her. All we ask is that they come in and get milked, so what, we need two hours of "good behavior" a day in a 24-hour period. I don't think its really too much to ask!! (It's her job.....she better get used to it!!)
Janene

[beth70]

"'Cause if she gets to strike three, she's OUT and I get tough."

What? What happens at strike 3? You're killing me! Exactly what do you do?

I've continued to use a leg rope on the side that I milk from and she is getting both better and worse! She is now standing very well until her grain runs out but then she's getting very cranky and starting to kick, backwards at the post, as the leg rope prevents her from kicking forwards towards me! But her protest kicking is also becoming more violent.

I am torn with the approach I should take. I keep thinking slow and steady is the way to go, to help her feel more comfortable again and not to be worried about coming in to milk. She has been such a quiet, gentle and cooperative cow until the curse of the mastitis. Today I tried smacking her foot with a small stick when she started to kick to see if that was part of her cow vocabulary, but it just made her kick more and I am now regretting that.

I am feeling so stupid and upset with myself! I don't know enough "cow talk" to communicate with her on this issue. I just want to go back to the peaceful milking we used to have, nary a hoof out of place! I don't like feeling anxious around those hoofs! Can't she sense my vibes of peace and happiness?

Sorry, it's a bit of a long and miserable post. Typing it out is helping me to think through the issues...

Maybe I should try the glove on the stick and just stay there dangling it around at her udder until she kicks herself silly and stops.

Maybe I just need to be sure she is securely leg roped (maybe both legs) and milk her until I am finished. I don't want to have to keep milking her for just our minimum needs each day.

Maybe I need to keep her locked up at night so she's a tad hungry in the morning so that milking (and eating) time is of more value to her.

Maybe, I need to get a new calf fostered on to her, which is something I have been planning anyway, and that might distract her? Any thoughts about this idea?

Janene, please tell me, what happens at 3???

[parndt]

Beth, when my cow and I got into a kicking match (after she kicked me in the face mind you) I kicked her exactly one more time than she kicked at me. I got the last kick. When she kicked after you hit her foot and you didn't do it again, she won. If she does anything bad, kicking, butting, shoving, and you give in, she wins. When she wins she will keep doing it. You can't let her win and whatever you have to use to give yourself the edge, then use it. I'd go back to tapping her foot if it were me. Only, don't stop until she stops kicking. It sounds harsh but Bonnie is still my buddy even after I kicked her in the thigh as hard as I could about 4 times.

[frogHOLR]

parndt is right on!

Get yourself a wooden dowel (broom handle) and prepare for battle. Do everything like normal when you go to milk. Be sweet, gentle and calm. If she kicks at ANYTHING (other than to move a foot for balance) give her a sharp smack on her lower leg. Calmly, tell her 'No!'. I GUARANTEE she'll do it again (rapidly!). Immediately after she does it, smack her again, telling her 'No!' again. You don't need to be angry or upset. You're not trying to break her leg (or the stick), you are only making her behavior result in something unpleasant. You are simply giving her the information she needs to understand what you want. Don't feel guilty or upset. You aren't trying to hurt her or really even discipline her. You are teaching her that one certain behavior she chooses to do, will result in a consequence that she will not like.

This might take 5 or 10 minutes depending on how convinced she is that she's the boss. When I did this with my cow, it took her about 7 or 8 repetitions before she just hunkered down and stood there waiting to see what was next. When she did this, I praised her and went back to business. She tried it one more time, resulting in 2 more kicks/smacks and that was IT! She hasn't tried to hoof-sandwich me since!!

Don't think of it as you being MEAN to her - think of it as you giving her necessary boundaries so she can clear up her confusion about what she's supposed to do. Good luck!

[Janene]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you! Strike three means I've had it and I leave. She stays there to pout, throw a fit or whatever. I simply get up and take what milk I have and go strain it in the house. I might piddle around for a half an hour in the kitchen and go back out and try again. My mood is better and she is usually happy to see me. We start all over, with a 'clean slate'. Like earlier didn't even happen. But she starts the 'strike one, two, etc' over, and I have got up and left (again) leaving her there again!

She will have already got a tongue-lashing, so making her stand there being bored makes her understand she gets out of there when I'm ready, not her. And she sure isn't going to get out of there if she isn't milked out, or if I'm angry. Neither does either of us any good!

And the kick-back advice is great. Cows are tough and cow hide is tough. You have to "talk" cow, in their language; which for some people it seems violent. Cows are NOT nice to each other when reprimanding or letting each other know who is boss. A stick is your horns and use accordingly to re-iterate you are indeed boss cow. You kick at me, I kick back, with my foot or my 'stick horn'.

I have alot of patience, but some things simply I won't tolerate without good reason! (I always check the udder/teats when my cow swipes/kicks. 90% of the time there is a sticker, or cut I missed and she was telling me to pay attention, it hurts!!) For the few times she was testing me, the second kick/swipe is when my 'tough love' kicks in. No kicking unless its for a good reason!! Even when my girl had mastitis, I was gentle, I know it hurts. But the milk HAS to come out.

It sounds like your cow is testing your boundaries like a kid to see what she can/is allowed to get away with. Once we get it through their heads the things that are and are not acceptable, things are more 'back to normal'.
Hope this helps!
Janene

[beth70]

Hey all,

I wanted to say thanks for your encouragement throughout my cow trial. It's been a week now since Bessie and I started the "Tough Love" program and we are having good success with it. We have come to a very simple arrangement. When I am unhappy with her I yell and slap and when she is unhappy with me she pees and poops. I'm pleased to report however that there has been a large reduction in the yelling, slapping, peeing and pooping since the beginning of the week. I was even thinking as I milked her this morning what a good girl she was being and planning all the nice things I was going to report here on this board, when she lifted her leg and kicked the post! It may have been because her grain was hiding under a flake of lucerne and the two large rocks I had put in her feed trough though! Finally, a LOL! I will, none the less, maintain use of the leg rope for now!

Again , thank you. I know my cow problem was quite minimal compared to the other problems I read about here, but in my mind it felt quite insurmountable, and I am so pleased that is is about over now. As they say, I couldn't have done it without you!

[Janene]

Ah we learn from each other, and modify things as needed!
I'm glad things are going better for you!
And yes, boy am I glad this board is here, too. Ok, I should say my cow is glad!
Janene