D- Should tube him?

[mrskk]

Chupa, the now 2-week old calf, has been lethargic the past few days and I don't know if he's eating enough. I gave him a vitamin B complex shot on Wednesday afternoon and a bottle of colostrum with some yogurt mixed in - he ate about 6 cups before refusing to eat anymore.

On Thursday morning, I gave him another vit B shot and he ate about 5 cups of the colostrum, plus he nursed for a little while - from the amount that I milked out, I would guess he got another 3 cups of milk by nursing.

At the pm feeding on Thursday, he would only take 2 cups of the colostrum and only nursed a little bit - I would guess about 3 cups. He is very lethargic about nursing, more playing with the teats than anything. He gives up easily, too.

He's pooping regularly and I've seen him urinate. Although his manure is thin, it is what I expect from a young calf who is only eating milk. He has lost weight since we got him and is fairly inactive, IMHO. He seems to have a contracted tendon on one of his back legs - it is quite stiff when he first gets up, but does seem to be getting better with time. He wouldn't put weight on it at all when we first got him, but now the fetlock is more flexible and he still limps when walking.

So, can I give him vitamin B shots more than once a day? It does seem to encourage his appetite, but doesn't last to the next feeding. And should I intubate him with colostrum and maybe add some electrolytes?

I'm starting to get rather worried about him.

[barnydhppy]

Hi Karen,
How much of the b's are you giving him at one dose? I found out that you can give up to 2cc per lb of body wt...but I've been known to give more if it is needed. The other thing you can do is give it TAD so that he gets a 'continual' supply throughout the day/night.

I know someone who will tube on a heartbeat and the reasoning is it is easy and helps the calf right away. So, if you are comfortable with it, go for it. I do not believe it would hurt him, and could very well be what pushes him over to the 'right' side.

I do hope he improves soon!

Rena

[mrskk]

The dosage on the bottle says to give 5cc per 100 lb of body weight. He weighs about 70 lbs, so I've been giving him 3.5 cc's.

I've never intubated a calf and really don't know how. I'll have to go to town to get the kit - while I'm there I think I will try to find a different nipple for the bottle, too, as it seems really big for him.

I will give him the vitamin B twice a day, though to see if it helps. Thanks, Rena!

edited to add: Are there instructions anywhere on how to intubate a calf? I did a search and it came up with no results - not even this thread, so I don't think the search feature is working properly. TIA!

[barnydhppy]

No, there are no instructions on here, I was told how to, and I'll get them out and put a post up ok?

Wow! All our b complex bottle say to give 1-2 cc per 100 lbs...I like your bottle better!!! LOL

The nipple is something we have to watch too. I use one that is really easy to start the calves with and as they get older I use the ones that take a little more work so that they aren't 'inhaling' milk in 30 seconds! lol

You might even try the different bottle/nipple first as it might just be he is getting discouraged at how much work he is putting out and the possible 'low' return. (all we did was create a larger hole in the nipple)

You'll do fine either way!
Rena

[throwback]

A calf on milk should have firm manure, high protein feeds (like milk) make a more solid manure. If it is thin, he has something going on inside which you already know.

[Claire]

He is drastically undereating- 5 cups a day is under a 3rd of a gallon and he should be getting at least a gallon a day and ideally more. I would definitely tube him to, if he'll suck, spend a good long time getting food into him.

[suzorse]

the calf feeding kit has directions it is what I used, I had to tube a calf 3 times a day for 3 days and gave her SMZ from my vet and banimene (sp?) she had a fever of 104, I was lucky to get a pint into her before and it was a fight , I was afraid she would starve to death
I tubed a QT at a time Suzanne

[milkmaid]

Tubing him is okay.

Agreed with throwback; the calf should not have thin or loose manure. I disagree that high protein feeds = firm manure, but I do agree that no calf on milk should have thin manure.

You can give Vit B twice a day; it's a water soluble vitamin and therefore is pretty safe. It'd be like trying to OD on Vitamin C. Need to figure out the real problem though; scours, pneumonia, navel infection, joint infection (is that hind leg stiff or does he have swelling/heat in one of the joints?), etc.

I'd skip the colostrum - it's a bit rich for a calf that's been off it for 2 weeks and is not used to it - but regular milk and electrolytes are good.

[Rhein-O-Ranch]

Most of the calves that we have had had what I would call yellow pudding for bowel movements the first 2 weeks and then it goes over to the firm stuff.
I would go get a bolus gun and put 2 boluses of Sustain III down the calf. These are long blue pills. This will kill most bacterial stuff in the intestinal tract that can cause digestive problems..
Also go get Pro-Bios. I know that you are giving yougurt but I would supplement it with pro-bios while the calf is sick.

[cccjerseys]

One thing I havent seen here. Is is very important to make sure a bull or steer calf stands! They CAN NOT pee without it. I did not know this and lost a couple of calves because I did not know this. Pick him up and hold him at least 3 to 4 x's aday to pee.
Shirla

[milkmaid]

They can pee laying down... they just don't like to.

[mrskk]

We brought him into the house yesterday after feeding time because he started shivering really badly. We built him a little crate using 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 foot sheets of cardboard that we have.

He is running a fever and has an occasional dry cough, so I have started him on oxytetracycline. He drank better from the bottle last night, but isn't interested in the electrolytes, so I used a 35cc syringe with a piece of aquarium tubing on it. He will suck on the tubing, so then I slowly push the electrolytes in. His appetite is still low, but getting better.

His eyes are much brighter today and his breathing has slowed back to normal, too.

The tubing kit they sell at Fleet Farm doesn't have instructions with it. I guess I was supposed to be born knowing how to do all of these things, as I've found that no instructions is the case with most things they sell there. VERY frustrating. As this tubing kit doesn't have an open end (the bag for the fluids is attached) how do I know whether I have it in his stomach or in his esophagus?

I do think we have him on the upswing now. He is still pooping and peeing frequently, the poop is thin, but not scours, so I think just from not feeling well. He does stand up, though he spends most of his time lying down. I know he's feeling better because he jumped right up last night when I gave him his Vitamin B shot!

I saw in another thread about adding a bit of rennet to the milk to help it coagulate in his stomach, so I will do that this morning, too. I have the rennet dissolving in cool water now while his milk is warming up.

Not out of the woods yet, but not emergent anymore. Thank you all for your replies and suggestions!

[greatday]

These are the instructions we used a few years ago to tube a sick calf. They were a life saver. Don't remember where I'd copied them from for sure, but thought it was this site. So THANK YOU to whoever posted it. The only thing I can add, is to print this out and read it very carefully, especially about going slow to make sure the calf is swallowing the tube and to not tip up the jug/bottle until the tube is all the way in. I think it needs to go in about 18 inches. Good Luck!


Losing a calf to a learning experience is a very tough lesson that many of us have to learn at one time or other. We can't know everything and it does us no good to wonder "what if?" But to help answer some of your concerns

You can tell if a calf is chilled by putting your finger in her mouth. She should feel warm. If he/she is cold don't feed her until her temperature gets back up to normal. Calves get the most benefit from colostrum before twelve hours.

Reading your post made me question whether she had just been fed prior to her coming down with a respiratory problem. It is possible that she inhaled some of the milk she was given. Calves can drown when bottle fed.

Tubing a calf is not dangerous in and of itself. There is an esophogal feeder by the name of MacGrath which has a ball on the end making it impossible to put the tube into the calf's lungs. This should be in everyone's emergency pack. The procedure is simple. Straddle the calf facing forward, both of you, and with her head held upward, insert the lubricated tube down the left side of her throat little by little. Wait for her to swallow it and ease it on down with the liquid held below the tube so that it doesn't come down prematurely. When the tube is in completely, lift the contents up so that they roll down the tube and it begins to empty by gravity. It takes a little while to empty and should not be rushed. Of course if the calf is chilled priority should be given to bringing her temperature up to normal before feeding.

[mrskk]

Now that he is better hydrated his stools have firmed up nicely. His urine is more clear, too. I hadn't realized how dark it had gotten.

He ate really well yesterday - nearly a gallon of milk, total, in two different feedings and two 3-cup feedings of electrolytes in between. His temp late yesterday morning was 103*, but last night at 10pm it was 106* again. If he still has a fever at all this morning I will go to Fleet Farm for a stronger antibiotic.

He is doing better, but I'm sure he'll have to stay in the house for at least another day.

Since he is in here and easy to work with, we went ahead and dehorned him using paste yesterday, too. I used the clippers to shave the hair off from around his horn buds and made a ring of Vaseline, then put the paste on his horn buds. I wrapped duct tape around his head and under his chin. He was rather irritated by the tape, which really told me he's feeling a lot better.

We took the tape off last night and now he has two bright pink patches on the top of his head. I wiped the rest of the dehorning paste off, worried that it was going to be really sore for him, but he didn't seem affected by it. If this works, I will make sure to dehorn all of my calves this way - it was really easy!

this can probably be removed from the 911 section now. Thanks.

[Rhein-O-Ranch]

So glad for the good news.
We dehorned our half Holstein/Jersey that way and you can't tell that she wasn't born polled.
In a couple of weeks there will be a couple of buds that will fall off. Might be a bit of a sharp ring around them. Our Dixie had one horn that way. The other just a small bud fell off first. I told my wife that she was going to have to do it again. But it all worked out right.

[buxombeefcowdairy]

When I have a calf that appears OK but won't eat, it almost always means septicemia, or an infection in the blood. This can be navel ill or joint ill, or it might have no 'spot' infection. But his lack of appetite, then his fever, are pretty big indicators of a septic calf. So he needs antibiotics. If he isn't getting better on the oxy-tet, I would go right to Nuflor. You'll need a prescription. Nuflor is expensive, but a 75 pound calf doesn't need much, so it shouldn't be too bad. It works really well, as an antibiotic it is very broad-spectrum and capable of penetrating tissues that other antibiotics do not.
If you can't get Nuflor, penicillin plus tri-brissen tablets can be used, but they must be given twice a day for a week. (You shouldn't need more than two shots, three days apart, with the Nuflor).

Everyone should have a Magrath Fluidfeeder in their emergency kit, since it should be available for a calf who isn't strong enough to nurse within a couple hours after birth. The end of the tube has a bulb on it, making it extremely hard to put down the calf's bronchial tubes (into the lungs). You still have to be careful that fluid doesn't rush into the back of the throat, since the calf could inhale then and drown, but this won't happen if you only allow fluid to go down the feeder when the tube is properly down the throat. (Just bend the reservoir down to stop the flow of fluid before removing the tube, or wait to remove the tube until all the fluid is in the calf's stomach,) These things aren't expensive ($10), they are easy to use, usually they come with pictured instructions:

www.valleyvet.com

The nipple that you can buy for these is great for slow nursers, it doesn't put much milk out unless the calf actually creates suction, so the calf is a lot less likely to aspirate milk into the lungs (milk trickles down into the lungs) which usually causes pneumonia.

If you don't have one, in an emergency you can use the hose that AnnB describes, just be very sure to listen to the end of the hose for breathing noises before you start fluids!

link verified: 10.03.10

[mrskk]

BBCD, thanks for the info on septicemia. I hadn't thought of that.

He has had a dry cough which now seems to be a bit productive, plus a runny nose now. I see that as a good sign that the antibiotics are working. He's still eating good. However, tomorrow is day 4 of the oxytet, which is supposed to be the last day. I posted in 911 as to whether it is okay to continue. If not, I will call the vet tomorrow to see about getting some Nuflor for him.