UPDATED Aug 1 - LABOR during drying out/mast

[kathnunley]

I'm not sure how to modify this (top or bottom), but need to update:

Last night, I went ahead and treated all 4 quarters with ToDay treatment for lactating cows. When I went out to milk this morning, she really fussed about getting up and coming into the parlor. I practically had to drag her. I milked her out but her udder was even bigger than before and what I got was a mix of collostrum and milk and she had long clear mucous hanging.

OMGosh.....she's in labor. I called my AI guy. We had to AI her 3 times this go round (hence the long lactation) and he said that the one in October must have taken afterall. We didn't think it had as she went back into heat, so had her AI's again in January. We were expecting a mid-October birth, but we now think her due date should have been July 23...and here we go. He said if she births soon, I cannot give that treated milk/collustrum to the calf. I have about 2 quarts frozen collustrum from the last go round. It's 17 months old in the freezer. Can I still use that? Is it enough?

I'm so distraught....we never dried her out. I hope this goes OK. She out laying in the yard now, breathing hard and her back end is swollen. I'm trying not to panic. - kathie





Original message:

Dixie is a Jersey, nearly 13 years old and due in October. Our plan was to dry her in early August. However a week ago she got a bad case of mastitis. It was really bad for a couple days - hot, hard, red quarter which kept her down most of the day. We've been milking her morning, noon, and night for 5 days trying to clear it up.

While it's improving somewhat (she's not kicking while milking anymore), the quarter still has lots of hard spots in it and even when I empty her, the udder is still firm. I'm not a big fan of antibiotic infusions, however, I'm about ready to think it's time to raise the flag of surrender here.

Given that we were going to dry her out in about 2 weeks anyway, could I just use an infusion in all 4 quarters and let her go dry? Is it dangerous to dry her out with mastitis even if we use the antibiotic? I'm just not sure whether to:
1. try to keep cleaning her up naturally, then dry her out as planned.
2. use the infusion, keep milking her til we know it's clean, then dry her.
3. use the infusions and let her go dry now.
(FYI: She's 19 months into this current lactation so only giving a gallon or so a day right now anyway).

Thanks for any advice! - kathie

[Shelby]

If she were my cow I'd go with option #2.

Leaving the infection in there even if using option #3 can cause problems that you don't want to have to deal with IMHO.

[joncowcare]

Hi Kathie,
This is one of the reasons why it is unwise to keep up such a long lactation, 19 months is only 5 months off 2 years and she's had to produce milk all this time, it's no surprise she's got mastitis as her immune system must be under some strain.

In such a case I wouldn't think twice, I would use special dry-cow tubes and dry her off immediately. Drying off is the perfect time to bash any problems on the head.
However, using these tubes will depend on how long it will be before she is due to calve as they have a longer mode of action than regular mastitis tubes.

I'm not convinced that you will avoid losing her damaged quarter whatever action you take but think positive and you never know !
Good luck,
Jon

[Tammy]

Jul 25, 2009 4:01:23 GMT -5 joncowcare said:

Hi Kathie,
This is one of the reasons why it is unwise to keep up such a long lactation, 19 months is only 5 months off 2 years and she's had to produce milk all this time, it's no surprise she's got mastitis as her immune system must be under some strain.

In such a case I wouldn't think twice, I would use special dry-cow tubes and dry her off immediately. Drying off is the perfect time to bash any problems on the head.
However, using these tubes will depend on how long it will be before she is due to calve as they have a longer mode of action than regular mastitis tubes.

I'm not convinced that you will avoid losing her damaged quarter whatever action you take but think positive and you never know !
Good luck,
Jon

Hi Jon,

I always enjoy reading your posts. It's evident that you are much more knowledgeable about bovine care than I could ever dream of being!

I am just wondering if you have seen any studies that support the fact that a longer lactation will indeed increase the risk of mastitis? Also, I am wondering if it makes a difference that the cows on this forum are family cows and are not pushed for production. I would think that the ease of life and excellent care that is given to a family cow would mean that one could extend the lactation period without adverse affects. I know there are several folks on this forum who do not breed back for a calf every year and to my knowledge have not had any real problems.

Just curious as to your thoughts.

Thanks!

Tammy

[wyomama]

Jul 24, 2009 13:08:52 GMT -5 kathnunley said:

I'm not sure how to modify this (top or bottom), but need to update:

Last night, I went ahead and treated all 4 quarters with ToDay treatment for lactating cows. When I went out to milk this morning, she really fussed about getting up and coming into the parlor. I practically had to drag her. I milked her out but her udder was even bigger than before and what I got was a mix of collostrum and milk and she had long clear mucous hanging.

OMGosh.....she's in labor. I called my AI guy. We had to AI her 3 times this go round (hence the long lactation) and he said that the one in October must have taken afterall. We didn't think it had as she went back into heat, so had her AI's again in January. We were expecting a mid-October birth, but we now think her due date should have been July 23...and here we go. He said if she births soon, I cannot give that treated milk/collustrum to the calf. I have about 2 quarts frozen collustrum from the last go round. It's 17 months old in the freezer. Can I still use that? Is it enough?

I'm so distraught....we never dried her out. I hope this goes OK. She out laying in the yard now, breathing hard and her back end is swollen. I'm trying not to panic. - kathie

The colostrum you have will be just barely enough.

I've moved your post to 911 and copied the emergency part here - hopefully some people who know more about Today than I do can chime in, and SOON!

I see she was in labor two hours ago - how is she now?

[Shelby]

OH my

that's not good, Like was said 2 quarts isn't enough, You'll have to find some more, Today have a withdrawl time of like 3 days I believe, so anything she gives now will be tainted,

Hopefully one of out vets can answer quick on this, or one of our more experienced members,

[kathnunley]

Thanks Wyomama. I'm keeping a close eye on her out the back window. She's laying down now and seems pretty content - but just re-arranges herself pretty frequently. (no up and down, just rolls to her back and then side).

I'm thawing out the collostrum and DH ran to the store for a calf bottle.
I've got about a quart of milk/collustrum mix that I milked out last night before medicating -it's in the fridge...I figure I can add that to the whole batch too. I just hope it's enough and hopefully someone knows if / when I can give the medicated milk to the calf.

[Tammy]

You can get powdered colostrum at farm stores usually. While not my first choice, it's better than nothing.

Thinking of you and pray things go smoothly.

Tammy

[Liz]

Thinking of you Kathy, please keep us updated!
Give the calf the colostrum you have already--it won't drink a whole lot initially. Are there any KFC'ers near you that have some frozen colostrum to share? You may not need a whole lot for only 3 days.

The mastitis makes a lot more sense now---she was bagging up with colostrum and getting ready to calve.

Worst case scenario--the calf gets some of her milk--- 24 hours after calving the permeable lining will be closed (you have enough saved up for 24 hours)--and you could always give the calf probiotics, etc. The antibiotics will not harm the calf after that point (24 hour mark)--may just give it the runs and upset its rumen.

Please update when you can!

[milkmaid]

You CAN give her milk to the calf after calving - nothing wrong with that - however, it's not high quality colostrum due to her not getting any dry time. Pick up some colostrum replacer from the local feed store or vet clinic.

No big deal. Relax. She's not the first cow who hasn't gotten any dry time and the calf won't be the first one getting treated milk and store-bought colostrum.

[kathnunley]

Thank you all so much.....I feel a bit better knowing I won't have to starve the poor thing. I already feel terrible that we didn't give poor Dixie any break!! No wonder she's been so lethargic....and seems so big for still having 2 and a half months left.....of course it all makes sense now - I feel like such an idiot for not putting all the pieces together.

We have no vets in our area, but my AI guy is a dairyman about 25 miles from here and he's good about phone advice. If anyone lives in southern NH and has frozen collustrum they don't think they need - please let me know.

The only silver lining here is that since it does appear that it was AI attempt #2 that got her pregnant - we'll have a pb Jersey again. (The 3rd AI was to a beef in hopes of it taking). I'll keep you posted!

[kellyj]

Hi Kathy,
I am one and half hours away as per mapquest and have six quarts of colostrum/milk in the freezer that I milked out of Shasta after she delivered her calf on June 18th.
I can come up if you can't leave or could meet you somewhere.
KellyJ

[Tricia]

Your AI guy has a dairy, he will have colostrum in some for or other.

How is her labor?

[kathnunley]

Jul 25, 2009 13:49:35 GMT -5 kellyj said:

Hi Kathy,
I am one and half hours away as per mapquest and have six quarts of colostrum/milk in the freezer that I milked out of Shasta after she delivered her calf on June 18th.
I can come up if you can't leave or could meet you somewhere.
KellyJ

Kelly - Thanks so much for the generous offer. I am going to try my AI / dairyman neighbor and see if he has some. If not I will PM you and make arrangements to come get yours. Thanks so much. She's back up and grazing this afternoon, so we may be a ways off yet. Still swollen with some drainage, but she's moving around the yard.

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Hi Kathy,

I'm not sure why you were told not to give the milk to the calf but our vet advised treatment with Today and then Amoximast and never said a word about taking the calf off. He continued to nurse fine and never had any problems.

Looks like you have a good head start on getting some colostrum too, thank goodness.

I love this place... people that put real hands and feet as well as minds to a problem. That was awesome kellyj! ;D

[DostThouHaveMilk]

Nothing wrong with letting the alf nurse. Most dairies usually feed the "junk" milk to calves. Treated milk that can't go in the tank (usually pastuerized these days, but used to be fed just raw).
The withdrawal times are intended so that people that might react to any part of the antibiotic or carrier are not exposed to it. Dad drinks the milk from a treated cow if the treatment is for a hoof issue or an injury. Mastitis he doesn't because well, mastitic milk isn't all that appealing tastewise.
If you do get colostrum from another herd, check their Johne's status and if they haven't tested or aren't Level 4, I would be heat treating that colostrum before feeding it to a heifer calf (assuming the calf is a heifer). A bull calf destined for slaughter it doesn't matter quite as much.

Lady had mastitis when dad was preparing to dry her up. Her udder kept swelling so I double checked the due dates. We had her actually confirmed to an earlier breeding, I just got the wrong date stuck in my head. She had less than a five day dry spell.

They can handle it if they are in decent condition, a rest is just better.

[kathnunley]

Sunday morning update:

No change. She still has a giant udder and the teats look a bit fatter, but the discharge out the tail hasn't increased. We took turns checking on her last night. Maybe we still have a couple of days.

I'll keep you updated, but feel free to remove this from 911 if you want to....I'm not near as panicked today, now that I'm over the shock that we're having a July baby and not an October baby and that KellyJ just south of us in Massachusetts has generously offered her freezer stock of collustrum! I think we'll be fine.

Got lots of opinions on the treated milk....not sure why it's bad, but I think after reading everyone's advice, I'll feed fresh collustrum to it for 24 hours, then let it have it's mama's milk. But as I said, maybe we have a couple more days in which case the ToDay will pretty much have run it's 96 hour wait period.

One final question. In my panic I thawed out the collustrum from the freezer and it's sitting in the refrigerator. How long will it be good?

And THANK YOU, THANK YOU again to everyone for their help. It's so wonderful to have this board....especially when you're an "isolated cow family" as we are.

[kathnunley]

Jul 25, 2009 18:14:28 GMT -5 DostThouHaveMilk said:

If you do get colostrum from another herd, check their Johne's status and if they haven't tested or aren't Level 4, I would be heat treating that colostrum before feeding it to a heifer calf
.

Can you explain "heat treating"?

[Liz]

I think the heat treating she refers to is pasteurizing.

You thawed colostrum should be fine for a week or 10 days, leave it unopened in the coldest part of your refrigerator.

Good luck, and thanks for the update!
fingers and hooves crossed!!

[sarak]

I wish I had colostrum for you but I don't

I am not sure where in So NH you are looking at. I am outside of Hillsboro and if you need anything else I'm happy to help if I can.

Good Luck!
Sara