Refuses To Take Bit

[AnnB (NE)]

Okay, I think I have some of Georgia's problems figured out.

The first issue is that the gal we got her from is afraid of horses! She was here Saturday and the way she acted around the new pony made it obvious that she's truly, deep-down afraid of horses. That pony would just shift a foot and she'd squeal and jump away from her.
She wouldn't even reach through the corral to pet Georgia until I put a halter on her!
I'm sure this is what led to Georgia being somewhat domineering, but she's learned that I'm not afraid of her and won't put up with her antics. I'm sure it surprised her previous owner when I go right into her corral after setting her feed down just outside, slip a halter on her, rub her all over her body (loose) before reaching through for her grain and putting it in her feeder, all without any pushing or shoving, or "I want my grain NOW" stuff. I wanted to show her that Georgia really isn't that bad, she's basically a good girl as long as she knows her place. She's learning that bad behavior doesn't get you what you want any quicker, in fact it makes things around here MUCH slower (get pushy over grain and you don't get it right then)

The second issue is her tack. The saddle that came with her is a terrible fit -- it's a quarter horse saddle. It's made for a low-withered horse, and being an Arab, Georgia is a high-withered horse.
It's a nice old saddle, but there's no way you could ever feel secure on that horse with that saddle. So I have it up for sale.
I'm very seriously considering just getting an all-purpose English saddle.
I've put in just as many hours on English saddles as I have Western saddles, and I think she would benefit from the closer contact that the English saddle allows.

Her headstall is a nice one and does fit, BUT they were using a mechanical hackamore and not having good control of her -- well, I examined the hackamore closely the other day, and it's broken. The noseband slips enough that it's not able to actually exert any leverage at all, no wonder she was running through it.
I don't really like mechanical hackamores so I talked to the guy who had her in training for 30 days a couple of years ago, and he said he had her in a Tom Thumb (reining bit -- broken snaffle mouthpiece with curb strap and leverage arms) and that she did fine in it. So I bought her one.
We've been going through the motions of tacking up for a while now, I had her to where (with just the headstall) I could bring it up in front of her face, put a thumb in her mouth, she'd open right up, then up and over the ears with no problem.
Then I tried it Friday with the bit in place and she FREAKED OUT! I mean really FREAKED OUT. I had her tied to the back of the stock trailer, she drug the trailer off it's block and back 5 feet, and broke her halter. Poor thing was shaking like a leaf! It was like all of a sudden I went from being her best friend to being her worst enemy! It took all the rest of the day to get her to trust my hands around her head again!
Surely just having a bit hit against her teeth in the past wouldn't have caused such an overwhelming fear of the bit. If I were to have to guess, I'd say that she's really had her mouth torn up with a bit at some point.

I'm at a loss right now, I have absolutely no idea how to go about getting her over this fear of the bit. Or if I should just do like her previous owners and go with a hackamore.
I have one of the Monte Roberts Dually halters, and they can be used as a bitless bridle, so I may try that before I go all the way to a mechanical hackamore.

She's one heck of a horse, the previous owners found her papers the other day (but forgot to bring them out), her real name is something Arabic, about as long as your arm. She came from a real high-classed family of Arabs. Even at 21 she's more horse than any horse I've ever worked with -- with the exception of the racehorses that I got to help school one summer in Ireland (Black Rose & Palo).
It's obvious from watching Georgia move that riding her would be very exhilarating!

Ann B

[Shelby]

I think I'd have to agree with you on why she's freaked out about having a bit in her mouth, My guess would be that whoever was riding her with a bit was extrememly heavy handed with a soft in the mouth kinda horse.

You know my DD's quarter horse does not like a bit in her mouth and my DD is easy on the reins and Charity's mouth, but she just tosses her head and stopping is a real no go with a bit, We bought her a hackamore to try out on her to see if it would help, and the head tossing stopped and she stops now.
She does so much better with the hack than a bit so that's what she'll stay with.

[rezzfullacres]

Start with applesauce, give her some out of your hand than put the bit in your hand covered in applesauce and let her play with it and than cover the bit in applesauce and try and get her to accept it. Most horses will do anything for applesauce. It can get a little sloppy but it does work

[Leimana]

I have been working with horses for 25 years and have gone through many personal realizations in relating with horses. I hope that does not sound pretentious, I know nothing about horses compared to the thousands of great horse people out there. Are you able to put anything on this horses head? What can you put on her with her staying relaxed? What is the gentlest method you can use on her, that maintains her trust in you? She sounds as if she has been traumatized in the past, so in the now is the time to establish that you are not a part of that trauma and that you support her in growing past that. Issues like this are not quickly resolved, they take much patience, never losing your cool and constant reassurance to your horse that you trust her in changing. I hope for you the best! She sounds like a wonderful horse!

[missevelyn]

Poor Georgia, she may just have bad teeth too. The ugly old gray gelding who taught me to ride was a hackamore horse. He'd been eared (four people) into wearing bits in his past and Smokey didn't do bits. He did ride a treat in a hackamore. When you can get a look in her mouth, check her teeth. He had a wolf tooth right in the middle of his gap and two broken bottom front teeth.

And you know, it's not what you and I like, it's what Georgia likes. I'm a hair afraid of the curb bit my darling put on my Appie, but Immie loves it better than a snaffle. My dh doesn't like the leverage/bar bit/Liverpool bit that the Fjords are so fond of, I keep telling him it's not what makes him happy but what Feather and Best like that matters.

Regina

[AnnB (NE)]

On the subject of teeth -- her fronts all look good for 21 years, but she is dropping a bit of grain when she eats. I do have the vet coming out in a couple of weeks for our spring stuff, so if there are any issues with her teeth, we'll find out then.


Leimana - I can drape a rope/lead over her neck or hold onto her mane and restrain her, I can walk up to her in the corral and put a halter on her with no problem. She lunges reasonably well, and even does pretty well when lunging outside the corral in an open, unfenced area.
I can brush every inch of her body with her standing in the corral unrestrained. I can pick up all 4 feet, but can only use a pick on the fronts. We have a farrier coming out in the next couple of weeks, he wants to lunge her for a while before working on her -- he wants sedating and binding her, as has been done in the past, to be an absolute last resort.

Yes, Georgia was very traumatized in her past life, she was shown in harness classes until she was 11. She has whip scars on her rump, she has scarring typical of soring on her front pasterns, and she has barbed wire scars on her chest and neck. After her career in showing was over, she was owned by a man that she was so afraid of, that when he would come into the stable where she was boarded, she would try to climb out of the stall to escape him.
4 years ago, she was rescued by the stable owners, Tom & Bea -- they basically just put their foot down and told the guy they couldn't tolerate the way the horse acted when he was there, that she didn't act that way when he wasn't there, and here's $$$$$, your board bill is erased, and she's ours now. And amazingly enough, he took the money and walked away.
I got Georgia last August, after Tom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I took her as a favor to them, we've known them since my 27 yo son was in the 4th grade with their daughter. They had to sell the stable and got rid of all of their horses but one. Sadly, Tom died recently and the one horse they kept will coming here to live this fall, as Bea just can't afford to continue to board her. I've agreed to let the mare come here, their son and my son will build a pen for her, and Bea will pay for what she actually eats -- which will be a LOT cheaper than what she's paying now.
Anyway, when I got Georgia they told me that she was headshy, but she's really not, at least not for me.
I tend to approach things with a confident attitude -- "we're calmly going to do this, it's just how it is, it's no big deal".
Not -- "would you please allow me to get close enough to you to think about doing this".
And Georgia has had too many of the "would you please's", and not enough of the "we're calmly going to's". At times the "we're calmly going to" gets her through things, has it over with, before she realizes what's happened! And that's when things get funny! Her expression says "Uh, what just happened? I fully intended to object to that".

Ann B

[Janene]

We generally used a hackamore on our barrel/game horses for trail/pleasure riding. When the bridle with a bit was put on, they knew: "game on"--its a working day, not a (tra-la-la-la-la) ;)pleasure day.
Georgia could be associating the bit with "work" and her past owner(s) rotten handling--well, what comes AFTER the bridle with a bit is put on.
Janene

[Leimana]

Georgias story is exactly the reason I stepped away from the high level competition. When I was young I had this warped glamorous image of advanced competition. After I got older and more experienced and some of the reality of what that scene was all about I asked myself, " What is the most important part of riding for me?, What is my real goal in doing this? And my answers were the same. Relationship. I did not need the show ring anymore for fun or anything else. I knew then that my love for horsess was deeper and that my life with them from that point on was something deep and special. My horse was happiest wondering through the forrest eating berries with me and swimming with each other and jumping fallen logs and puddles. We thrived more then than all the years of intense training for the show ring. I did not like what I saw and that had me turn more internal, to see all the abused animals out there like what Georgia experienced. The thought of her climbing the walls to get away from her abuser brings tears to my eyes. It sounds though that she is now in good hands with your calm straightfoward attitude with her. She will fall in love with you. She also sounds like she is level headed despite her past, based on your descriptions of her calmness in your handling of her. I apologize if you already said this, but does she stop at all when she is ridden? If she can go nicely in the bitless bridle I would try that. Anything that frightens her like the bit in her mouth (if thats what it is and not pain from her teeth like someone suggested) she will only think about that the entire time and not the nice experience that she could be having with you. I am of the mood that if she will ride with a halter, do that, but it sounds as if she has more fire than that! I would hang the bridle where she can see it( if thats possible) and when you are brushing her and such, carry it over your shoulder or have it where she can see it then too. If you move it frequently, but dont ask her to put it in her mouth, she will desensitize a little bit. Even if she acts nonchelant about it i would bet she has something going on in her mind about its presence. With your confidence she will see it as just a part of what you do, having it hanging in front of her nose, off your shoulder, by her feed tub. Hold it up in the air as close to her as she will accept without turning her nose the slightest bit from it, if she doesnt move away, or even better, if she looks at it or touches it by her own decision, than praise her with words or a treat or a scratch or whatever is the way you praise them. Doing this over and over will have her reassociate that the bridle means friendship and not pain. It will have her thinking "why is it that I get ____ when I pay attention to the bridle?" She will think for herself the reason why and in turn make her own decision that the bridle is not bad. There is not one thing we can do to force something on a horse and they think" that this is good". Only by engaging them in a thinking/understanding process will they come to work with us willingly. Sure, we can beat the horse to do what we want, but with great damage to their spirit and our relationship with them. But I am in no way suggesting that is what you would do, I am only expressing my opinion, on the contrary what I have read from your post, you are kind and sensitive to each horses individual nature and needs! Good job for reaching out to find an answer to your problem with Georgia, I am sure that with time you will succeed!

[AnnB (NE)]

For the first month or more that she was here, I couldn't use a pitchfork around her -- she'd start shaking and go into a sweat. But after standing an old one up in various places just outside her area for a while, she got over that fear and now pays it no attention except to reach out and grab hay off of it. So she might respond to desensitation with the bridle, I just might have to try that.

She does respond real well in a halter, when walking along it doesn't take more than 5 lbs of pressure to stop her and she turns with just the slightest pressure. But she can't be walked on a loose lead -- if the lead is too loose, she steps out quite a bit more and is more likely to do one of those 5 foot sideways jumps when something spooks her.

I've also found that she responds real well to voice commands. After no more than 10 minutes she was responding properly to "whoa", "gee", "haw", and "back" -- she must have been trained to those commands when she was trained to harness because it's taking a LOT longer to get "over" through to her!

I haven't actually ridden her at this point. I've had her saddled on several occasions and she really doesn't like being saddled either, she's cinchy, but once you get it on her she's okay with it. But it's a heavy thing and it doesn't fit her propery. I mean it could be "cranked down" to the point that it would work, but I doubt that she'd be any kind of comfortable that way.

I'm thinking about just changing everything, going to a small, lightweight English saddle and the bitless bridle/schooling halter might just be what she needs to show her that her life really is different here. That all I want out of her is a nice, (safe) leisurely ride around our 65 acres. That she's never going to be beat, never going to be earred, and won't be twitched unless it's truly medically necessary.

I think I'll go to TSC today and see if I can find some of those brass clips/snaps to attach reins to the Dually and see how she does ground driving.

Oh, she's also jealous of the pony! She's definitely noticed the attention that the pony gets (the pony gets ridden by the grandkids).
When I go into the pony's pen, Georgia starts nickering and keeps up a constant stream of conversation until I get over to her. These past few mornings, she's been more interested in greeting me than in wolfing down her food. So, IMO, that's encouraging.


Ann B

[Leimana]

As a response to your saddling needs and her being cinchy I have a few suggestions that I have used in the past. A wide band of fabric with velcro on the end so that you can adjust it to different pressures has helped me before. Even one of those stretchy ace bandages or leg wraps could be used. Drape it over her back and let her feel it. There is hardly any weight with that, but being an Arab I would guess she feels everything and acutely at that! Next, pull the wrap closed, but with minimal contact and keep doing whatever activity with her that you would do normally. I personally, before putting it on her would let it hang loose over my shoulders, carry it wadded in my hand or whatever to have her associate it with the "norm" and not anything to be suspicious about. Also if she reaches out to inspect it praise her for it or treat her. After she has noticed it then I would put it on her casually. Arabs have a shorter topline from withers to hip than other breeds and appropriate saddles for them are a must. I think there are some new fancy "bareback" pads that are designed more like a
saddle, but with more closeness and security than the pad would offer out there. A nicely designed dressage saddle or aussie saddle could offer her lightness and shoulder movement and comfort and balance for you. You mentioned you would like to explore your acres with her, so maybe a light weight arab endurance saddle would suit you both. Back to the fabric cinch around her girthline, you can gradually tighten it, but never as tight as you would a girth. This is really only to help them feel the sensation without weight. Also, if you have an arena or round pen or small paddock, go for walks in there. That way you can lead with a slack rope. if she goes to move ahead of you calmly change directions. In a familiar situation ( like her own paddock or pen) then she would have nothing to spook about and if she found some excuse than she would have nowhere to go. After she is calm ( this might take weeks of doing) open the gate and go out, turn around and go back in for a walk. As long as she walks calmly and slack keep doing that. Soon you should beable to stroll further and further away with a slack rope and calmness without having to stop her foward movement constantly and you have a safer horse to communicate with. It seems like with Georgia, that calm has not been in her life most of the time, so that is what you will need to establish with her as the norm for your relationship. Being an arab she will probably always be more on alert than say a heavy quarter horse, but there is no reason that she should not get to the point of relaxed neck and jaw, calm soft back and gentle responsiveness on the ground and when riding. She is already becoming attatched to you! She is seeing you as a food source which is the first step in becoming friends. When they have no physical desires ( food, water, shelter) than they start craving companionship, although with horses being relating creatures whose lives rely on herd communication, food water and shelter mean nothing without companionship! It sounds as if are on your way to having a satisfying, loving reationship with her. She is lucky in her advanced age to come to a home that cares about her emotional health!

[wyomama]

I haven't read everything - but a mechanical hackamore, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't know how it works is actually pretty severe.

A true Tom Thumb (straight shanks) can also be fairly severe if not fitted right, and not used right - it exerts a lot of leverage with little force, and because of its design, will buckle up and bump the roof of the mouth, and can pinch the chin area too, depending on how long the shanks are.

A lot of people call any shank bit with a broken mouth piece a "Tom Thumb" - but one with shanks that are sloped back is less severe.

An option that you might try Ann, is a side pull - although it sounds like that might be how your combo halter is designed to work.

Unless there's a specific problem (a horse that wants to run off) or I'm trying to develop a reining horse, I've about come to the conclusion that a ring snaffle is all that I want to ever use.

At 21 years old, with her history of abuse / hard use - it might be better to figure out a way to accomodate than to "fix".

Also, if she's losing a tooth, or got a long wolf tooth, or scarring on her tongue, she might actually be reacting to real pain rather than remembered pain.

[medwife]

I have just read the top part of this original post, so please forgive me if its already been said.....but have you checked her for a marshmallow palate? This is typified by a soft upper palate that a 'broken bit' (snaffle, tom thumb, pellham etc) will gouge, when in use. Also check for wolf teeth that have not been removed, or a bad jaw tooth.......another thing, make sure she's not intentionally getting her tongue over the bit. With those issues ruled out, I want to make the next set of comments..........

I have trained many horses that just freaked out with a bit, simply because at one time in their life they had a fit, and someone said 'that horse wont take a bit'. Bullhockey. Unless there is a physical issue that doesnt allow a horse to take a bit, they WILL take a bit. Most times its a mental issue for the animal.

If the animal has no physical problem, then my first route of training is to secure them in a round pen or a lot, and put a halter on them.......then take a simple snaffle bit (o-ring, d-ring, full cheek, half cheek etc) and hang it LOW in their mouth, tied off to the sides of the halter rings. Hang the bit low enough that the horse will have to actually pick it up with their tongue and 'carry it'. Do not hang it so low that they get a tongue over it though. A good rule of thumb, as I am sure you know this, is to keep a bit 2 wrinkles (or smiles) at the corner of the mouth.......but when you put it in for problem training, you will hang it with NO wrinkles....just low enough they have to learn to deal with it. After this, I simply let them carry it 24/7, even while eating. I do not take it off unless there is a problem, for about a week. After this point, I raise it ONE wrinkle, and repeat the process. Once you are back up to 2 wrinkles, then you can probably proceed with putting a headstall on, with reigns, and let them hang over the neck (not the saddle horn). The next step for me, IF the horse is compliant, is to attach leg wraps (stretchy material) with a slight (very slight) amt of pressure tied back to each side of the saddle......lunging can then commence. As the horse accepts the pressure, a small amt more can be applied.

Hth's
Cindy

[medwife]

I just read up further.....if she had truly been shown in harness classes, then she would definitely be used to a bit. I would check for soreness and bad teeth......other than that, its back to basics school with learning to carry a bit all over again without the fear and pain.

Cindy

[medwife]

Lee Anne, I totally agree with you....I only use snaffles anymore unless I have a specific purpose for a headset in mind. I have a retired track and barrel horse that is horribly ring sour......he will literally sit and spin with me in the arena.......but he is a well behaved gentleman if I ride light and easy on his mouth. I think he still expects someone to haul his head to the curb and beat him. He's got deep (finger deep) whip scars on his back, so I know something really bad has happened to him somewhere in his past.

Cindy

[wyomama]

Just thought of another possibility of something to check - I did have a horse in my barn that had - presumably from abuse - a neuroma in the corner of his mouth - so a bit was "freak-out worthy" for him.

[missevelyn]

Marshmallow palate? Hunh. I learn something new every day. What does it feel like when you feel of it? Now I've got to figure out how to get a finger inside a Fjord's mouth without getting accidently chewed on. They flat out don't like snaffles, the mare loses her steering. (Not to mention getting very twitchy. She rides/drives on the big ring of a Liverpool bit. The little gelding simply has armstrong power steering anyway from the team lines. He's on the middle ring.

I'm gonna go get slobbered on.

Regina

[BissyAndBessie]

Just reading this thread. Lots of good ideas here.
If she was used in park classes then she will have had a curb bit in her mouth.
I would use a un jointed non leverage bit to start her on.
There are lots out there. I would try a mylar bit my self.....but I highly recommend a side pull. I've uses them in situations like yours with great success.
Once she gets used to going in that then bit her up but don't use it for a month, still using the side poll reins. Then use double reins and get her used to the bit that way then just go with the bit.
If it were me though, I'd just put her in a sidepull and be done with it. You can wrap the nose band in vet wrap to soften it up a bit.
Oh and the method of rewarding her for looking touching the bit is a great one.
Caleb trained an abused mini to halter himself this way. We couldn't do anything other than fasten the throat snap, but he would put his face in the halter if you held it up.