Pasture help.......please

[CampE]

Our pastures need some work. First, let me say that we have tried getting the advice of our area state grazing specialist, the Soil and Water conservation office, local feed stores and grain elevators( the 3 we checked at told us they sold seed, but didn't know much about it), the local co-op and big time farmers, one who planted our pasture, but it seems wrong for the most part. We spoke with many so-called professionals and not one ever mentioned a soil test. And we were very upfront in the fact that we are new to all of this. It's been frustrating. We are a small farmstead here surrounded by big operations and we just aren't on the same page with things.KWIM?

Anyway..........
I know the first thing we need to do is have a soil test done and I plan to make some calls today for that.
We have 6 acres divided into two separate areas. They were planted in Sept. 2007. It is a mix of whatever the co-op sent out - a sore subject for me. It has clover and it seems that our cattle do not care for clover. Could this be that they prefer other plants and will eat them first? The clover is white if that helps. My husband has spread manure on it last year and just recently.
Money is tight here (as is the case with many folks) and we no longer have access to a tractor. I've been reading on frost seeding and would love the advice of the Family Cow family. Really, most of you seem like-minded in that you want the best for your animals in as natural way as possible.

Yes, I'll get to the point - my questions.....
*We live in N. Indiana. Would you frost seed clover? What clover or other seed would you recommend. I've read about trefoil - I can do this myself by hand spreading.
*What do you fertilize with? I hope to be able to use plants and such in the future to help with the soil, but for now I'm not sure what to put on the soil. I was hoping the manure spread well would be enough.

It would be great to find an old time farmer that worked the land the old way.

Thanks for any help. Sorry if my questions seem silly or don't make sense. I'm trying to self educate my self on this and it's confusing.

Christine

[ozarkfarmgrammie]

I would take it one step at a time.

First, get the soil test. Then you will know about fertilizer and what to plant.

I am sure the ground is growing something right now. Remember the forage doesn't have to be something you sow. You might have all you need growing right now. Be patient.

As for frost seeding, in our area January and February are the best months (zone 6 sw Missouri). I can't imagine you cattle not eating clover. That is the first thing they usually go for.

I would be good if you could keep the weeds and mature plants that the cow doesn't eat mowed down to about 6-10 inches. Will that be possible?

I once had an elderly neighbor who kept a beautiful farm, tell me that all you needed to farm was a small tractor and a bush hog. You might keep that as a goal.

[Jenn]

Cows don't like to eat near manure...maybe that' a factor in avoiding the clover? If funds are tight, the cheapest fertilizer is lime...it will help make all the other nutrients more available. Just make sure it's a low (less than 5%) Mg lime.
-Jenn

[CampE]

ozarkfarmgrammie, that's great advice - "take it one step at a time."

Jenn, I'm sorry I wasn't clear in that we don't put the cattle out after spreading manure. We do wait. They avoided the clover when the field was at it's best.
About the lime, I wasn't sure if it's good or not, but in reading I see that most people do use it.

Thank you both.

Christine

[eric]

Mar 13, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 CampE said:

About the lime, I wasn't sure if it's good or not, but in reading I see that most people do use it.

It all depends on your soil conditions. It might be the most important thing you can do. It might be totally unnecessary. Your soil test will tell you where you're at. Here in my part of North Carolina, almost every farm is going to benefit from liming every so often, but your soils may not tend towards the same acidity that ours do.

[CampE]

We got some info on getting a soil test done and will work on that this week.

We did get some red clover out on a few acres that could use a bit of refreshing.

Christine

[missevelyn]

Don't forget the whole rotational grazing routine. Study up on that, your cattle will do a better job of eating everything if they only have a day or so's grazing. Gotta eat it or some one else will. They can eat about everything, they're just picky sometimes. MissEvelyn wants fine grass and alfalfa only! And you know, wanting and having are two different things.

Regina

[joncowcare]

Hi CampE,
Suprised to hear that clover is a problem as it's usually a good indicator that the land is fairly healthy and most of the cows I know enjoy eating it.
While it can not only improve cow performance it is well known for 'fixing' nitrogen and therefore reduces the need and cost of using extra N fertiliser as well as improving the soil structure.
I know it is often blamed for bloat but provided cows are introduced to it slowly and not on cold wet mornings all should be well.
It's inclusion can also increase the protein content of grass swards by as much as 25% and in such cases you will need to increase your energy [ME] ration to compensate for this. [don't forget, you need energy to metabolise protein effectively. ME x DCP x DMI = Milk !]
There are generations of farmers over here who have been using the same lays for years and they do this with one spray or spread of FYM per year !
To check your swards pick 3 areas at random from each field and measure roughly 3 x 3' squares and then count the number of wclover plants you have in each square. [no need to be too precise . . .]
If you find that your squares have at least 20% wclover plants in each you will be fine and can content yourself with one spread of slurry or solids [over winter !] each year.
I was taught this as a kid by an old boy I worked for and my own experience bears this out as being pretty near. I was also taught to dig a pit in each corner of the field down to about 3' to see the composition and structure and drainage capabilities.
As far as soil tests go you can pay a fortune and still have differing results.
Lets say you have different varieties of soil in each field, say heavy clay, light clay, sandy loam etc, etc, you'll get varying results.
My own view is to have a walk through your fields and if after doing a wclover count [as detailed above] your feet are covered by grass without soil showing it is doing well.
Not very exact or scientific I know but you did ask for the old timer . . .
Good luck and I hope you'll let us know how you do ?! I'd be interested to hear how it's done in the USA !
Jon

[CampE]

Wow Jon! Thanks for sharing what works for you. I can't wait to let my DH read this. This is the type of experiences we are looking to try on our little farm. And, I appreciate you explaining in words that I can understand.LOL Oh, except could you please spell out what you mean by FYM?
I will let you know what we find.

Thanks a bunch
Christine

[Shawn]

Since you're in the same general "region" as the author, I would strongly suggest reading Gene Logsdon's book "All Flesh is Grass." It would probably help you decide what things you might be interested in planting. I got it as a library book and now I NEED to get my own copy. So much info to absorb, I can't remember it all with one reading. LOL

[joncowcare]

Hi CampE,
Glad my drivel made some sense to you !
FYM = Farm Yard Manure = cow/pig etc, muck. It's usual to leave it for at least a year to rot down well and if you have the time and machinery turn it every few months. Most places have their own pits with deep walls and a sloping entry so you can get in with a loader bucket but this depends on how much you have to deal with.
It's also usual to apply it in winter so that any solids are well broken down before spring and first growth.
Good luck and I look forwards to seeing how you go !
Jon

[Deleted]

May I offer some help? I dont know how far north you are in Indiana but first off if you are very far north you got sand, you need a soil test but you also need lime. Especially if your ground was formerly crop ground. Second, are you leaving the cows on the pasture until they eat the plants down to nothing? If you do this you will have no root system for recovery. All the nutrients in the world wont do a bit of good without a root system. Separate the ground into different sections and feed one for a week then move animals feed for a week and move animals. How many cows per acre do you have? You need to know your carrying rate to manage the stocking rate. Set aside some area for winter paddocks where you feed hay until the grass comes on then manage the forage to best fit the stocking rate. Get your testing done then amend the soil. It takes 6 months to a year for lime to change the ph of your soil. What you think is the best grass is not what the cows think is the best grass, clover is fine if the cows are used to it, that is why they included it in the mix. Most likely you got a cool season grass and a warm season grass and a legume (clover) to round out the blend.

When you take your soil take several small samples from different areas of the pasture area then mix together for a uniform sample, if your cows are grazing around the pasture then they are already spreading around what you want spread around.

Last but not least get on line and look at the web site hosted by Purdue and find the links that have pasture management and you will find world class advise from world class professionals explained in a way that the everyday Joe can understand them. One of the links is exactly what you are looking for with all the answers to your exact questions. Hope this helps and Good Luck.