Red Wattle quest!

[catherine]

Ok Guys, I'm on a quest to help Melissa (Pasofinofarms) and her DH get into Red Wattles, so that we can become Red Wattle Piggy Partners! They've fallen IN LOVE with our RW trio and want a trio of their own. We hope to be able to put together and sell breeding pairs in the future. So, I'm looking for a trio that's as unrelated to our pigs as possible for them...and that's a real challenge!

So...here's the deal. Red Wattles are SO RARE that their genetics are concentrated within only two known bloodlines...the Wenglar and the Timberline lines. These two lines have been heavily intermingled, so that it's difficult to find pure strains anymore. Everyone in the RW community has been searching the woodworks trying to find either pure or more distantly related bloodlines, or even possibly the Holy Grail of RWs...another completely distinct third bloodline! Apparently one guy, Paul Bradshaw in N. Florida (find breeder contact info. and breeding information on the new site REDWATTLEPROJECT.com), has built up a nice herd with fairly dissimilar strains of the two bloodlines. He just wrote me that he's got a nice litter of 8 week old piglets for sale, now. In the past, he's sold some of his stock to Ed Frazier, in Tampa. Angela Tanner, my friend in Louisiana, has bought all her animals from Marian and the small group of 4 family farms she represents (Marian Van Beever (http://www.fivepondsfarm.com/)), like we have. She's taking some of her piglets to Ed, and bringing home some of his to help them both diversify. That's so cool.

However, what I find REALLY exciting is the fact that Marion has made an exciting discovery in the last known breeding pair of an old, old branch of the original pure Wenglar line. I have to give Marian all the credit for this find! She could have squirreled this information away for herself, but she wants to help the breed flourish, and that will only happen through selfless people like her sharing what they know with others for the betterment of the breed! Thank you, Marian! Anyway, this herd of pigs has been passed along through 3 or 4 different owners in the last couple of years, and the last pair has landed in the hands of a fine Christian herbalist named John Barr ([e-mail]) and his piggy partner, Mike Holland, in SE Alabama. Since they have bought them, this pair of pigs has successfully raised two litters, of which they still have 3 one year old pigs and 11 six month old pigs. They are hoping for another litter in April. They want to trade for other bloodlines in order to diversify their genetics, too. The one fly in this ointment is the fact that this particular pair of pigs aren't registered yet, though I understand that there shouldn't be much trouble in doing so. I'm trying to facilitate their registration, as we speak.

My sense of urgency is driven by the fact this breed is on the Razor's Edge of Extinction, so, as folks at the ALBC have said, "NOW is the Red Wattle's time"...they will either expand and survive, or they won't. I think it would be a real tragedy to lose this fine breed of lovely heritage pigs. The other thing driving my timing is that Angela will be traveling to Florida on or around March 20, and just MIGHT be able to help us collect Melissa's trio. She'll be delivering her piglets to Ed, and collecting some from him to take home, and she might just have the time and space to haul a young boar and a couple of gilts from Ed or Paul for Melissa and me. Then, she MIGHT be able to meet John along her route home and trade that boar to John in exchange for one of HIS young boars. Then...John would get his relatively unrelated boar, Angela would have her genetically diverse pigs, Melissa would have as unrelated a trio of RW breeder pigs as I think we can possibly find right now...AND Angela would then bring them all the way to her farm on the Louisiana/Texas border, all the while getting help with her trip costs! Whew. Hopefully it could be a win/win situation for everyone! Then either Melissa or I can make the remaining 3 hour drive to Louisiana to bring our breeders home!

Whew! Now you know what I meant about being on a RW Quest! LOL. I think I've sort of got a domino effect going here...this happens so that can happen so the other thing can happen...as long as I can manage to get everyone lined up right. ;D

P.S. I might be able to help Tammy and Stacy get some RWs to North Carolina in a similar fashion! That is...IF...they are interested and IF they'd be willing to drive 5 hours to collect animals from Asheville, N.C. Marian, my breeder friend, has a fellow who'll be driving his own pair of gilts home from Missouri in 6 weeks, and perhaps an extra pair or two of gilts could be "piggy-back" onto his load in exchange for help with the cost of transport? Speak up, people! Is there anyone else wanting some RED WATTLE PIGS along these routes?!? Oh, it seems like Marion's also mentioned someone driving down from Oregon for some of her piggies...hint, hint, hint! ;D

[Liz]

Sign me up to take your culls for the freezer! I realize that may be a year away, which would be just grand!
I can't convince dh to breed/raise them year round.

Sounds like the quest will work out just fine!
I have never ever seen a more determined or resourceful group of folks other than KFCers! ;D

[catherine]

Lol. You are first on the list, lady! ;D Listen, don't worry about your sweet DH. As the folks at Slow Foods USA say...in order to save rare breeds, you have to EAT rare breeds! Besides, if Melissa has a boar, and we do, who knows...someday a gilt of your's just might "happen" to have a conjugal visit before her date with the butcher!

P.S. Our two gilts are hopefully bred for late June piglets. So...when do your current piggies meet the butcher? Would you possibly be interested in August piggies?

[catherine]

Hey Stacy!

Like you, we're comparative novices at all of this. My DH and I had NEVER had pigs, but my Mother had had some. She built two 5'X10' portable wooden pens with one side roofed with scrap tin that fit down the rows in her garden. She towed the pens with her little tractor. Mom bought a pair of pigs and put them inside and called one Roto and the other Tiller! lol. I remember that they ate up all the grass and weeds, and tasted delicious! This was like 25 years ago.

Fast forward to last December, when we inherited this farm and had our Milking Devon cows consolidated and then delivered by a breeder named Regan Westbrooke in Arkansas. In conversations with him, he said he had several other rare breed critters. When he mentioned his Red Wattle Cross sow had a young litter, we agreed to purchase a pair of piglets. My 14 yr. old son was furious with me, saying that we had enough on our plate taking on the cattle! lol. At first, the piglets were small enough to go into a small pen we built under the rabbit hutch. We ran a spare electric poultry net fence around the hutch so that we could let "the pig girls" out to play with us. They were charming! Before we knew it, we could take them for walks on dog leashes. Then, they would just stay with us while we walked around the farm, snarfing on acorns, grass, cow pies or crawfish as they went. They LOVED trotting up to the cows in the pasture and freaking them out. However, the cows and pigs quickly got quite used to each other and would graze peacefully in the pasture together, just one big happy herd. When they outgrew the hutch, "the pig girls" were so used to their electric poultry net enclosure that we let them have it permanently. We would rotate the pen around our garden site, and kept a full self-feeder and a dog nozzle waterer with them all the time. We could let the gilts out during the day and they'd go graze the main pastures with the cows, and then come back to their pen at night, ready to go to bed. When our only cow (the rest were heifers and bull calves) had her calf a couple of months later, the pigs didn't bother her a bit. In fact, they got to the point where they were actually helping us halter train the calf! We kept a halter and drag rope on the little heifer, and when the pigs were let out into the pasture, they'd occasionally go pick up the lead rope and walk the calf around! They didn't pull on her, and she calmly followed their lead. It was SOOO cute!!! If you'll remember my son trying to talk me out of the pigs...well...he made a complete turn around to say that he loved the pigs better than any of our other critters...combined! He was SO glad I'd not listened to him!!! ROFL! ;D Now, THAT'S not something you hear from your teenager every day! lololol. He said they are smarter than dogs, and I'd agree.

Ok...long story made longer, we loved those two girls so much and were seriously upset when they disappeared at 8 months of age. They were in heat and all signs point to a wild boar liberating them and leading them away. We suspect someone later found them and put them in the freezer, as they were literally dog tame. So, we began searching for another pair of gilts and our own boar, to help keep the girls home, this time! Regan's boar had since died so he couldn't help us, but he sent us to Marian Van Beever (http://www.fivepondsfarm.com/). I called and had the loveliest phone visit with her. She's a delight. It turns out that she represents 4 family farms that each have a few breeding RWs and try to coordinate their breeding so that they can put breeding pairs together. Last summer, she was able to put a nice breeding trio together for us, and we coordinated with Angela Tanner in Louisiana who was already heading up to Missouri for some stock of her own. All we had to do was pay Marian for the hoglets, share gas costs with Angela, and drive just 3 hours to collect them from Louisiana, instead of 15 hours to Missouri ( ). Badda Bing...we were back in piggies! These guys are equally as nice as the first two gilts. My daughter Sarah can sit on the Boar's back like a horse. The Boar is now 9-10 months old, is between 5 and 6 feet long and maybe waist tall, but he's super mellow. The gilts are a 7-8 months old, and I'd say about 3/4 of his size. We trained them all to electric fencing by housing them first in a cattle panel pen with electric wire run around inside. In fact, I have to tell you, my DH and kids set up chairs and all but popped pop corn to sit and watch as the pigs learned about electricity. It WAS hilarious, in a kinda mean sort of way. However, those smart pigs quickly figured out what in the heck was "biting" them! And now...they won't go near the stuff! lol. So...these guys have all continued as the first gilts...living in an electrified poultry netted enclosure. The one difference is that we've had our own home grown boar to keep the girls interest AND to send out the "keep away, male in residence" scent to any wild boys! The girls are now 7-8 months old, and were bred last week. So, we've weathered that particular hurdle. Now to see how maternity and raising our own piglets goes!

As to what you need to raise pigs...well...I'd REALLY recommend that you check out Walter Jeffries' blog at sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/. He's raising about 200 pigs on 10 rocky Vermont acres. They are rotationally grazed as long as the pastures aren't snow covered, and thereafter they are fed hay. He scrounges a lot of their food from out of date dairy products from his local dairy plus out of date bread. He also adds in stuff like a few tons of out of date peanut butter from the Ben and Jerry's plant nearby! lol. He sells weaner pigs, breeder pigs and pork to locals and restaurants. He's been running a test for boar taint (uncut boars are reputed to have a funky gamey flavor to their meat) and last I heard, after progressively butchering out intact boars, still hadn't encountered any taint in up to 3 yr old breeding boars! Anyway, Walter checks in periodically our pig section, and is an amazing resource. His blog is nearly as addictive as the KFC forum!

So...hm...what were your questions, now? Cost...depends on if you are buying freezer pigs or breeders. The RW breeders are trying to standardize the price for all these pigs so that no one gets either gouged or undercut. I can't remember exactly what we paid, but if memory serves, it was something like $80-85 for a freezer boar (defective for breeding...has only one testicle) and like $250-275 for breeding males/females. I know, I know...I about choked too at first. But, once you have your own piglets to sell, then you will be supported by the same process.

Yes, these pigs are extremely tameable and nice to work around. They are seriously entertaining. I think Melissa and her DH were sold on the breed when they came out to our place and saw my daughter riding the boar! lol. They were also impressed that they were inside their electric poultry net pen and hadn't destroyed the pasture after having been there a week. Mind you, if the ground gets muddy, they WILL till, but generally, they just graze like a cow. We've found that these pigs are even less active than our first gilts. They DON'T greet the dawn with a glad cry. These babies like to sleep in late (like til noon!), and go to bed with the sun. They grow quickly. I'd assume that they exceed butcher weight of 250-300 lbs. inside 6 months, which seems pretty standard for freezer pigs. All of the 6 pigs we've dealt with have been extremely healthy. We've fed them pig ration, plus all the stuff from the back of our fridge (my kids LOVE cleaning out the fridge now, searching for "experiments" to feed the pigs! lol), plus any whey and bad cheese trials, plus any older milk, plus old veggie left overs from the garden and the local fruit/veg stand, plus out of date bread, plus whatever we can scrounge.

You asked about parasites...well, we've also regularly put some D.E., Basic H and ACV in their feed for parasites. They probably have some parasites, but then again all stock does, to some extent or other. The question is whether the stock is healthy enough to tolerate the load and keep the parasites in check or not. We keep rotating the pigs onto new pastures and away from potentially contaminated ground so that they leave any parasites behind. Without their host, parasites on the ground will die within a month or two. In fact, that's one of the reasons we want multiple species grazing our pastures, so that each sanitizes the pastures for the others. The idea is that the cows go through first and drop their parasites, then they move away from them and the pigs come through behind them and eat the grass with the cows' bugs without harm (parasites are very species specific), and drop their own. Then the chickens come through next, and eat grass with the pig parasites, etc. Then the pasture rests for a month or more and the sunshine kills anything that's left. I'm sure that many people use Ivomec, etc., and we may find we'll have to do the same, but we try to be as organic and natural as possible, and so far, our experience with these pigs has proven them to be very hardy and healthy without chemicals.

Let's see...next...how heat/humidity proof are these pigs? Well, the white/pink ones tend to get sunburned. The darker pigmented pigs, like the Red Wattle, don't burn nearly as easily. However, having access to a cooling mud bath in the summer, plus some shade would be very helpful. You see, pigs DON'T actually sweat anywhere but on their feet. So, they use the mud to help them cool down their core body temperature. Also, the mud acts as their suntan lotion and their mosquito and fly repellent. Truth to tell, our pigs haven't really had any formal building to call home, so far. We'd built an "A-frame" hut which they loved while they were little, but we didn't build it strongly enough, and they crashed it when they got bigger. Thereafter, I stacked 6 square hay bales into a 3 sided, 2 bale deep space, and covered it with a piece of plywood with another couple of bales on top. This temporary "cave" ended up lasting all summer! This year, I plan to build a strong towable platform with a shed roof that we can move around the pastures. Pigs are actually quite clean and pick one area of their yard to sleep in and another to poop in, so their living area stays quite clean. They love rooting down into hay, and will make a nest to curl down into. So, I guess I'm saying that your existing structures would probably make awesome pig residences/maternity quarters in the winter, but you might want to do something more mobile for other times in the year to reduce your parasite load, and allow the pigs access to new pasture. Pigs are amazingly adaptable to extremes of temperature. See Mitra's posts about her pigs in the snow, as well as Walter's, too! In fact, Walter says that chilly and wet is harder on pigs than dry and cold. We've had a really dry winter, this year, but if we'd had more mud, I would have had to rotate them more frequently (as they'd reduce the pasture to mud otherwise) and would have been more serious about providing them with shelter so they could stay dry. Hopefully the sturdy drag shelter I want to build will work for all extremes in the future.

Whew...this has become quite a book. I hope I'm covering things you want to know about. I think your last question was about how much time you have to make your decisions. Well, it sounds like there are a few piglets kinda all over. You probably will want to contact Marion Van Beever in Missouri, and find out for sure how many piglets she can locate for you right now, IF you want to try to coordinate with that NC guy and share hauling costs with him. I believe he's driving down and back, but that's something you'll want to verify. He's apparently purchasing 2 gilts, and it seems like Marion said she might be able to provide another pair of gilts it someone else up that way was interested. However, this consortium of RW pig breeders don't have a boar to go with them, yet. There is another litter due in the next 6 weeks or so, but they won't be ready to be weaned for another couple of months. Down in the Florida panhandle, Paul Bradshaw has some 8 week old piglets, and presumably you could have a boar shipped to you, or perhaps you (or a friend) might have a reason to go on vacation to Florida and pick him up . If you aren't able to get any pigs right now, don't fret. There will be more litters, including 2 from our gilts (hopefully) sometime around the end of June. The only rush is if you want to share hauling costs with someone else in NC.

Another thought would be for you to join the Red Wattle Project (http://www.redwattleproject.com/br_results.php) and see if the two people on the list from NC might have any piglets. I think they are actually with the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy, so they may or may not have pigs...but it can't hurt to ask.

Well, I do hope I haven't overloaded you with this letter. I do hope I've given you some of the information you were looking for. We love our pigs, and hope you will, too. God bless and keep you guys.

Yours, Catherine

[Tammy]

Hey Catherine! I have been having internet trouble for the last couple of days and have not had service most of the time. Sorry I was not able to respond until now.

I am looking at the info that you have posted and have done a little searching on the net about these hogs. I will give it some thought.

I really would like something not quite so BIG!!!! I am partial to the Tamworths but they are also a relatively large hog, I believe. I like the thought of having a smaller breed to handle, but then one must make sacrifices in other areas when it comes to the meat.

I will give the Red Wattles a serious consideration. I guess I am just so on the fence with all of the breeds and want to make sure that I am absolutely committed to a particular breed before investing my time and resources. I guess I just have not fallen in love with any particular breed at this time. The closest I have come is with the Tamworths.

[catherine]

Hey Girl...so get a pair of Tams and see how you like them. Or, get one of several breeds, and compare. If worst comes to worst, you eat them...so I don't see the problem! lol. We actually did a taste test of several different breeds before finally settling on the RWs. We ordered pork chops from 3 different breeds and then got some from a friend and from the grocery store. I cooked them all the same and we did a blind comparison. The RWs won. Then we did it again using a different recipe...and again, I was the only one who knew which was which, and again, for our tastes, the RW won. Well, OK. It's RW for us! ;D If you are sitting on the fence between various breeds, see if you can get some meat from each breed and make your own comparison. I mean, it's not JUST what the pig looks like, right? The ultimate reason for raising them is to enjoy eating them. So...save your pennies and order your pork chops. We got our's from Heritage Foods USA (http://heritagefoodsusa.com/). Bon Appetite, and do let us know how your test turns out!!!

[catherine]

So, the saga goes on. After much finagling, the final deal was...Melissa and her DH were going to buy the 8 month old, breeding ready, gilt from Alabama, and our friend Angela would do the hauling as far as her home in Louisiana, and keep the gilt for a few weeks to breed her for July piglets to go with our's that are due at the end of June. Melissa and her DH are so excited, and so am I.

However, Angela arrived home on Sunday night without said pig. Angela said that something had come up that prevented her picking her up, but that she'd be trying to get back over later on to collect the pigs (A. is getting one, too). Huh? I've written to see if she's ok, or what?! No reply as yet. I'm kinda worried, but am hoping that no news is good news.

When we finally have a happy ending to this saga, we'll have to be sure to post photos so everyone can see the gilt that launched a thousand trips! (paraphrase from Helen of Troy's face launching a thousand ships! lol). Bad pun...sorry...it's late! lol. Night! C.

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Catherine you crack me up! Well this does throw our timing off a little to get our piglets ready with your piglets but we may still pull it off yet. I have heard from Angela that she is fine. She had some pressing personal business and had to get back home without the pigs but will try again in a few weeks so we may not be out of the game yet for having partner piggies for your litters yet!

[catherine]

And you can name her Helen of Pork, and her someday prince charming can be Prince Paris of Pork?! lol. Just think of all the classical allusions you can make from this. How about Aphrodite, Goddess of Lard, and Achilles, Warrior Hog! Sorry...it's late again. I've just got to quit getting on here when I'm tired! lolol. ;D Night guys.

[georgiamon]

Greetings to everyone talking red wattle pigs.
I'm a permacultural homesteader in Central Georgia's uplands and admire the Red Wattle breed, and would like to help perserve the breed. I would like to purchase a Trio of unrelated weanlings(boar/gilts) within reasonable distance of Georgia. So would everyone pass my search on to others. Thanks..........Georgiamon'

[catherine]

Hey there! Welcome to the KFC forums...full of the kindest, craziest and most helpful people on the planet! About your RW quest, I'd like to direct you to the Red Wattle Project website (http://www.redwattleproject.com/). It's now the official site for the Red Wattle Association, and it's designed to help breeders connect up with each other and plan breedings. Why don't you look up Paul Bradshaw's name and contact info. on the breeders list and see if he still has any piglets. He did have some that are probably 10 weeks old, now. He's in N. Florida. Good luck on your quest, and please do check in here and let us know how you get on, ok? Blessings, C.

[farmgirl29340]

Hi,
I'm located in upper South Carolina & looking for Red wattle too. Can you help me? I haven't found any close here yet.

Thanks,
Eve

[catherine]

Hey there, Farmgirl! Welcome to the nicest group of farm folk anywhere! This KFC group really is like a family, and I'm happy to welcome you to it!

So, you are interested in RWs, too?! Excellent! My best advice would be to look up the Red Wattle Project and look up the listed breeders. Off hand, I know that there's Paul Bradshaw in Northern Florida who has piglets periodically. I understand that he has some really nice stock. Otherwise, I'd suggest you talk to my own RW mentor, Marian Van Beever of Five Ponds Farm in Southern Missouri. She acts as marketing manager for 3 or 4 small family farms, and knows loads of others. I have no idea whether they have piglets currently or not, but she'll know who does, if she doesn't. Paul and Marian have their contact info. on the RW Project website. Good luck, and do let me know how your quest goes?! Ok?

I have to admit that I'm getting more and more excited about our own expected RW piglets. Our gilts look nice and healthy and hopefully, their babies should make their appearances sometime around the end of June/beginning of July! Wow...2 litters of babies...and they are sooo darn cute! I can't wait!!! I'll try to post some pictures of our expectant mamas. Blessings, C. ;D

[farmgirl29340]

hi again,

Thanks, I finally contacted a guy in AL and so I'll be getting 3 girls & 1 boy RED WATTLE!! I am excited and look forward to helping anyone start their own herd next year. For those interested in Red WAttle pigs, let me know. I haven't found any in South Carolina Or North Carolina that have any, although some folks were listed in NC. We'll be picking ours up May 9. If anyone wants any this year I'll certainly try to help.

I also plan on getting purebred Berkshire. So if anyone wants those let me know. Thanks, for being so kind in helping me on my quest. I will be looking for another male RED Wattle and a Bershire male in the near future.

Hope you all had a GREAT weekend. ;D

[catherine]

Oh, EXCELLENT! Congratulations on getting the new livestock! Are these RWs still young piglets or are they grown animals? How soon are you expecting to have them bred? Also, who is the breeder that you got these pigs from in Alabama, and do you have any idea what bloodlines they come from? Please, do post photos of your new piggies when you get them, ok? We all LOVE photos of handsome animals and love cheering each other on with their new acquisitions. Who knows, Tammy and others may be knocking at your door for piggies when you have some to sell, so please do keep us posted! ;D

[penb1231]

Hi, I am new to this. I am thinking about getting and maybe breeding RW. I live in Arkansas so there is not many here that I can find. Is it necessary to have one registered? I really need as much info on them (RW) as I can get. My grandfather always had hogs not sure what kind. I have enough land to raise some, but do not have my fence up yet. I will be getting a hog or two for sure but just not sure what is the best for me. I really could use some help on this. Thanks Pen

[ilvnazoo]

There is a great article on them in the current issue of Back Home Magazine. The article is called Raising Heritage Pigs.

Lisa in GA

[farmgirl29340]

Hi, again.
These will be babies. And i changed my piggy order. 3 females & 2 males. that way i have a backup. so i won't have any til next spring. Mr. Randy is the 1 i'll be getting some from in AL. no i haven't thought to ask about bloodlines yet but i will.
thanks.

[catherine]

Hi, Pen! Welcome to the KFC forum! Stick around a while and you'll meet some of the most awesome and helpful folks here. If you are in Arkansas, then I'd write to Marian Van Beever in Missouri (http://www.fivepondsfarm.com/) and get on one of her waiting lists for piglets. She's got loads of helpful information, and as she does the marketing for 3 or 4 family farms raising these wonderful pigs, she tends to know when and where there are babies to be had! Tell her I'm sending her a big hug, and that our piggies are doing fine! We've hopefully got 2 gilts due with their first litters in early July. ;D Good luck in your quest. I'm SURE you'll find your pigs and be as delighted with them as we are! They are awesome animals, and they have won our multi-breed pork taste testing three times in a row! Oh YUMMO!

[catherine]

Just realized, you guys might not have heard "the rest of the story...!". Sorry! Melissa now has 2 RW piglets (sibling, gilt and boar) she bought for an awesome price from someone in East Texas. It looks like they are from fairly different breeding to our own RWs. I got a peek at them the other day, but was without my camera, so hopefully Melissa will post some photos here for you. They look like very, very nice RWs, and are apparently growing like weeds for her. I think her plan is to trade the boar pig to another fellow who needs a new bloodline, so her eventual breeding pair of pigs won't be closely related. Then Melissa and I can build unrelated breeding pairs or trios for people who'd like to raise their own RW pork! Woohoo! ;D Quest almost complete!!! Life is good. Oh...one additional sweet point is that the age of Melissa's gilt means that she'll be about ready to breed when our two sows are ready to rebreed, so we'll be "in sync"! lol. Ok, ok...I'll go to bed now...my baaaad sense humor is coming out.