Lack of good pasture and other ?'s

[thezillas]

Hi everyone!
I've been lurking on this site for a while, reading and learning as much I can. It is a wealth of knowledge, and sometimes I get overwhelmed just reading everything. I have SO many questions, so please forgive me if I bore you with the obvious ones!! I am so excited, yet overwhelmed, at the possibility of getting our own cow.

My husband and I bought the Family Cow book and both read it, cover to cover, and after alot of talking, decided we would like to begin going forward with plans for a family cow. There is no one near us that does this(we do not live in a farming community, there is little to no agriculture up here), so we have NO support or frame of reference, besides what we are learning from this forum. I was hoping to mabey find some connections here. We are building a garage this summer and are planning to add a milk room, run in/stall, and hay storage on the back. We would probably only be getting one cow plus her calf, since grass grows so pitifully slow here. We'd like to keep grain to a minimum.
1: If we get the best quality hay we can find, would it be possible to not need to feed her grain? We have hardly any grass, which we're working on, but until the pasture is established, can we keep her in a paddock and just feed hay? Or should we just wait a few years (gosh, I hate that idea!) to get our cow so that we have adequate pasture available?

We have 8 acres of wooded land, very sandy, acidic soil. The property is fairly flat. We plan on cutting trees from a couple acres and broadcasting seed this spring to help jumpstart pasture.
Question 2: What to sow first?? Alfalfa? Clover? We are in Northern WI, if that makes any difference. There is really nothing growing right now, as it is all shaded from the woods. So it is a blank slate.

Cynthia

[Jenn]

Keeping a dairy animal (cow, goat) requires a high level of management. Keeping a dairy animal healthy and in production without grain even higher still. Hay can have good nutrition in it but it will not have as much as before it was cut.
Going to have to finish this thought later....running out of daylight.
-Jenn

[missevelyn]

Depends on the cow, more than likely to keep weight on her you'll need to figure on grain. One way to think of it is, the cow's needs come before any system of feeding. With what you're got for ground I'd assume 12 months a year hay, plus what ever grain she's been used to having. Then as your place improves you can let her pick some of her living. Even if there isn't much out there she'll like going out to pick and it saves on shoveling up in the barn.

Others can give you more detailed ideas of feeding than I can. My darling simply feeds as he always did, all she can eat, the best hay we've got and wet cob for grain. For MissEvelyn that's a dishwasher bucket twice a day, your cow might need less or more.

Regina

Regina

[thezillas]

Just to clarify my original post, I am not opposed to feeding some grain, I just don't want to have to be pouring tons of it into her. Is that possible without grass? I remember the Family Cow saying you could supplement with things you grow, like root crops, and alsosome beet pulp and alfalfa cubes...

Should I just wait to get the cow until we establish pasture?

[thezillas]

Sorry Regina, we posted at the same time. That helps...is there any certain breed that would do better on this type feeding, or is it solely based on the particular cow?

[Jenn]

If you don't want to feed a lot of grain, you will need to have an animal that doesn't produce as much for their body weight. An 800 lb cow that produces 1-3 gallons of milk is different than an 800 lb animal that produces 5-7 gallons of milk.
Dexters, shorthorns, some brown swiss...more dual purpose animals seem to do better with fewer inputs.
-Jenn

[Jenn]

Depending on what kind of woods, you might consider getting some milk goats to help clear the land for you. You could get your milk fix and free labor at the same time!<L>
-Jenn

[thezillas]

We had discussed goats actually, but they were vetoed in the end...too hard to contain, and we don't really like the milk as much as cow's milk.

We had also discussed Brown Swiss (hubby likes them), but then were swayed to the Jersey side after reading The Family Cow because of their small size. Mabey we should look at Dexters...or find a really sweet tempered Brown Swiss!

So the dual purpose breeds do better because there is less tendency to overproduce in proportion to what they're being fed? Instead of "milking off their back"(I think that's the phrase) and losing condition, they just slow production, correct?


~Cynthia

[eric]

I have a few random thoughts you might find helpful.

First, if you can disc and seed your land more intensively (as opposed to just broadcasting), you can get forage crops established in just a matter of months instead of years. I'm thinking especially of annual forages. I don't know what the comparable crops would be in northern Wisconsin, but here in North Carolina small grains grown for forage or summer annuals like sorghum-sudangrass or Red River crabgrass could potentially feed a milk cow for most of the year. In the meantime, you could also plant perennials on the side, maybe, and preparing the ground better would surely help the perennials get established better, too.

As for what kind of cow you would want if you didn't want to feed lots of grain, I think -- more than breed -- you should look for a low producing cow. If you buy a cow that's been bred to produce lots and lots of milk, you're going to have to feed it accordingly. The only reliable way I can see to avoid that imbalance (of feed consumed:milk produced) without much grain is to dry your cow up. You might consider drying her up for more than just the average 2 months, and you might want to be very picky about what time of year she freshens. In other words, you may only want to milk her through the time of year with the best quantity and quality of feed and take her through the off-season dry. I'm sure that would count for a lot when it comes to not buying tons of grains. However, it's not always easy getting a cow bred on a strict schedule.

As for breeds, I would think something smaller (e.g. Dexter) would probably suit your goals better than something larger (e.g. Brown Swiss.) Does everyone else agree?

For the typical family cow, I would guess 2000-3000 lbs of bagged-type feed/year is average.

[Jenn]

My brown swiss is shorter than my jersey, both are below my armpit. She might be crossed with something, but she definitely has a sweet, sweet temperament. Dexters can be good, but you have to know what you are looking for as some people make some very wild claims about them. Very few people are breeding for milk and dairy temperament in Dexters anymore.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of poorly handled goat milk out there, gives the good stuff a bad name. Goats train to electric very well if you do it properly.

BUT, you MUST get the critter you want to look at. You are going to be spending a LOT of time with her. ;D

-Jenn

[thezillas]

Jenn, I would have to agree with you about finding an animal we like. I was really hoping to find something sweet tempered, whatever the breed, so my kids could be a little more invoved as they get older. Thus my thought about goats...but alas, my husband is definitely partial to Brown Swiss, but I'm not sure if that's just because he's heard they give amazing cream!! He's such a cream hog!!! ;D I suppose cream output is another thing that will vary from cow to cow...sigh. We have so much to learn!!! I don't want to pick something just because of looks or supposed breed strengths and then find out they're terrible milkers or just plain mean. It's great to hear there are some smaller framed Swiss' out there.

I think I just hijacked my own thread...teehee

Pasture. Right. Tillage is not an option for us. There are no farmers with cropland closeby, so it's not like we could hire it out. And buying equipment to do it is out of the question. So broadcasting is our most obvious option. Mabey I'm missing something, but there are so many roots and rocks that I just don't know HOW tillage would be an option anyhow. Mabey that's why no one farms in the area. They all know something I don't!!!!

I will look into what annual forages work for up here. I do know a guy that keeps bees, and he has used clover on his property.

2000-3000 lbs per year-that is a helpful figure. I'll have to do a search on grain storage and see what we need to plan for in that respect.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far...it's really helpful to just talk it through with people that are actually doing it!
Gotta go feed the baby!

~Cynthia

ps...Jenn, the goat milk we had wasn't too bad...are there any clean handling procedures that are different from cows??

[jacquelynn]

I don't know a whole lot about seeding. But as far as breeds. We have Jerseys, Shorthorns, and Guernseys. The Shorthorns definately keep weight on better than the other two breeds. We have found that the shorthorns do much better with less grain and more grass, they can keep the weight on and produce the same amount of milk as our jerseys, (which are not really high producers, but they work for us). In fact, we have talked about breeding everything Shorthorn here and using the crossbreds. Hasn't been done though. However, I have to say that I love the Jersey face and eyes, they are sooo pretty.

[thezillas]

Thanks for the info about Shorthorns-I know there is a shorthorn association in Southern WI, so that may be an option...

So what I'm hearing is this: for the first year or two I would have to be okay with basically having a dry lot cow on a paddock sacrifice area. We could let her out or tether her on our lawn (which is pretty pathetic) until our pasture gets established, however long that takes. And I couldn't expect the production to be on par with a cow that is getting grass which is okay. A dual purpose, lower producing cow will do better with a low volume of grass but lots of high quality hay and some grain to supplement in the off (cold?) season. Is this correct?

And yes, we were planning on calving in the spring or early summer. Too cold here to do otherwise!!!

Thanks for all the ideas so far,
~Cynthia

[Jenn]

You're on the right track.
I highly recommend reading Grass Productivity by Andre Voison and Soil Fertility and Animal Health by William Albrecht before you get your animal/s.

Oh, and good goat milk should knock your socks off! It is slightly sweeter than cow's milk. It's really wonderful for fresh drinking. The cream doesn't rise as fast, it takes a few days. It should NOT taste bitter, goaty, or off in any way.
I started with beef cows, then got dairy goats, then dairy cows. I love them all for different reasons. My cows are like teddy bears, slow and calm, my goats are like puppies, much more personality!
-Jenn

[ozarkfarmgrammie]

If this isn't a farming area, have you located a nearby feed supply store, a large animal vet and someone who can sell you good hay?
They things are critical to keeping a cow.

All that being available, a cow can be kept confined in a smaller area and fed good hay 24/7 and grain (well-balanced ration) for a long period of time. Remember most commercial dairies do just that!

I hope you are thinking about the commitment you are making. The twice a day, all year long care thing. Sometimes that can come as a shock to people who aren't used to it. How will you get her bred? Does someone nearby have a bull you can use or is an A-I technician available.

Check out all these things and do lots of research before jumping in.
That way you can be assured of a wonderful experience for you and your family......and good milk.

[eric]

Jan 22, 2009 15:42:51 GMT -5 thezillas said:

A dual purpose, lower producing cow will do better with a low volume of grass but lots of high quality hay and some grain to supplement in the off (cold?) season. Is this correct?

Although, I think cutting back -- even eliminating -- purchased feed/grain is a very sensible goal for the family cow keeper, your circumstances seem like they're going to put you a long ways from achieving that goal. I would expect you'll find yourself needing to feed some grain pretty much year round. Certainly, I would plan on feeding grain for whatever part of the year you plan on milking.

In the book "The Family Cow" the author says the following about "times through the year when higher levels of concentrate feedings, approaching ten pounds daily, will be more helpful to milk production and the cow." (I would think much or all of your year might be covered by these circumstances.) "These are (1) when the cow is on low-quality pasture or only fair-quality grass hays with no legumes; (2) during the first three months of lactation when milk production is at its highest; (3) when cows are giving very rich milk; (4) when cows are in their last two months of lactation--to help with developing the new calf; (5) when young cows are still growing; and (6) any time a cow is in a run-down condition."

I've had to learn some hard lessons about over-estimating what my pastures and hay are worth. For instance, I spent a bunch of money on a goat once in order to avoid having to spend money on milk while my cow was dry. I was feeding this goat okay, but not great -- I didn't know enough about goat's particular nutritional needs -- so she dried up, and that was the end of the milk supply I had planned on. (The same thing happens with cows.) Just recently I think I made the mistake of thinking that my early lactation cow would just produce less -- I was getting more milk than I needed -- if I didn't feed her as lavishly, but she got run down before I realized it and before she ever noticeably slowed up on production. I'm just now getting over a three week long fight to get her back to normal health, and I continue feeding 15+ lbs of grain/day strictly in order to keep her healthy.

I also wouldn't assume that simply broadcasting seed over a clear cut is going to establish decent pastures. Will weeds not choke out the grass? Some grasses might be able to germinate with carefully timed broadcasting, but other seeds wouldn't be hardy enough to cope. I wonder if the weeds you might wind up with wouldn't feed a goat a lot better than a cow. My goats' favorite pasture/browse plants would be considered weeds by any cattle farmer.

I certainly don't mean to talk you out of keeping a cow. I love keeping a cow, but it takes good nutrition to keep a cow giving a surplus of milk (more than her calf needs), especially if you want to have milk for most of the year. I just wouldn't plan on that nutrition coming cheap or easy.

[Jenn]

Hey Eric, the goat drying up may not of been your fault. Some goats do not have long lactations and dry themselves off after 3-4 months.
-Jenn

[eric]

I thought having kept a milk cow that I'd know what to do with a milk goat, but I know now that there are a lot of things to learn that aren't the same.

[thezillas]

Ozarkgrammy, THANK YOU for asking the questions you did...these are the things we are working on right now to make sure we DO have proper care for our future cow. That is why I am here, talking to all you wise folks, trying to learn more. Please don't think we are city slickers who have just taken a fancy to having our own pet cow. We do have one local vet who services cows. There is a small local (overpriced) feed store, but the next one is 45 minutes away. That feed store does do deliveries though. There is a lowline angus bull and a limosine(kinda big, IMO) bull we've located within 40 minutes of us. We were planning on getting a smaller type cow and breeding to the lowline for a beef cross- yum! My husband is capable of doing the butchering. We were planning on working in our single vacation of the year around her drying off time, other than that, we don't leave home much...I am a stay at home mom, so I'm around most the day. And I know I can locate good hay if I start working on it soon enough, though at this time I don't have a particular source in mind. But this is WiscAnsin, SOMEONE will have good quality hay, right?? I was checking out Craigs list, and found some people selling good alfalfa hay, and this is the off season. I think if we build with plenty of good hay storage in mind, start looking for good hay plenty early, then stock up when we find it, we'll be just fine. I know I will probably have to pay through the nose for really GOOD hay, and that's fine.
These are the type things we need to think through- what else am I missing?

Jenn, I've checked out the Fiasco Farms website, do you have any other good goat resources? I am still interested in goats, they seem a bit less daunting to start with, but hubby will have to be convinced! :-) What are the differences you and Eric are referring to?

Thanks for all the help guys!
~Cynthia

[thezillas]

Jenn, I just found the goat section under the "other critters" section on the forum...I'll probably find alot there. DUH! :-)