B- Grazing genetics question Heather or anyone?

[Joann]

Cow Grazing Genetics

Heather, I know you have thought and read quite a bit about cows’response to grazing.
I notice on another forum that it is believed by some that the older Jersey genetics enable better feed response to grazing compared to other blood lines. While the desire to achieve good feed conversion and production on grass/hay alone undoubtedly was of interest in former centuries, it has not been a major goal during the last 50 years of dairy breeding. It is quite a new enthusiasm today among people interested in family cows.

Some sheep breeds have for centuries been selected for thriftiness on rough grazing so it would seem to be an attainable goal given time and interest. At the present time, what I am seeing appears to include a great deal of anecdotal evidence as to the superior thriftiness of some Jerseys over others. A great deal is known about the adaptation of the rumen in cattle raised on pasture as compared to cattle raised in confined feeding. The rumen of cattle accustomed to confined feeding develops differently and such cows are unthrifty if moved to a grazing situation. If we were to extrapolate from what is known of nutrition in other species from rodents to humans, it can take three generations to recover from DNA changes brought about by deficiencies. These are not permanent genetic changes; they are corrected by a couple of generations of improved diet.

It would seem to me that before paying a premium for blood lines reputed to embody the twin goals of thriftiness on pasture alone and maintenance of low production, one would need to know to what degree we might just be purchasing stock with a rumen adapted to grazing because of a life on grass.

Would you, or anyone, care to comment on this topic?

[simplynaturalfarm]

Joann, I'm not ignoring you at all, just trying to get my bathroom finished painting as it is in pieces till I"m done. Ben and I were discussing your question yesterday and I'll comment on it a little bit later today!
LOve,
Heather

[hazelsmilker]

My AI guy has a friend with an organic
farm here in Oregon with about 50 milking
Jerseys. He selects for cows which hold up
and produce well while grazing. He picks
slightly smaller animals with good feet
and legs. I was heartened to hear this.
Evidently some farmers never gave up
selecting for cows that produce well on
pasture and realize that it takes a whole
cow to do so.

[Claire]

There are AI companies that offer "grazing genetics" with bulls who are supposed to produce daughters that thrive in a pasture- based dairy set up. I'll see if I can find the website of one.

[Joann]

Those sites were interesting reading, especially the second one. It provides useful insights on selection for grazing.

Thanks for finding these.

[simplynaturalfarm]

Joann's comment in another post about bringing this up, reminded me that I never replied. DH and I went round and round in circles with this one (genetics or generational etc) and I really appreciated the links Claire put up. I'd like to hear other's thoughts still so am bumping this one back up.
Heather

[doc]

Joann,
Here is a link to a beef breeder that might interest you and others on this list.

I will scan the Stockman Grass Farmer magazine for any dairy links when I have time.
Dale

link verified: 2.18.11

[Claire]

I get the SGF, too and they have been on a beef cattle kick for a long time now, with the occasional sheep or goat item tossed in. Nothing about dairy cows .

[Selden]

I also get SGF (my non-farming husband's attempt to please his mate at Mother's Day!) and I share your frowny face, Claire! Lots about beefers.

Of course, there's a level where "cows is cows" but I have been totally blown away by the additional requirements Katika has as a dairy cow in milk, as opposed to a dry heifer. She now eats a bale of hay a day, plus 2 #10 cans alfalfa cubes, plus 2 #10 cans of Coarse 14 sweetfeed -- and drinks at least 30 gallons of water. (I give her 20 gallons every night and there's usually only an inch left in her water tub in the morning. Last year at this time she had a five-gallon bucket like a horse! ) I feel as if I'm finally figuring out what will keep weight on her.

It would be great if SGF had articles for alternatives to alfalfa (it doesn't grow in the rainy, acid Adirondacks, that's for sure) or sweet feed for added protein and calories.

On the other hand, this board supplies all those needs in so many respects. (IE the looking for answers from others who may just have a cow or three, rather than 300.)

[Joann]

Selden, you might want to consider Coarse 16.

It really is amazing what a dairy cow needs to eat but when you consider what they give back it is a good bargain.

[Deleted]

I am usually silent on the whole grazing question because my cow has 4 or 5 pitiful acres to graze. I am working ever so slowly at building pasture from a previously wooded hillside.

Right now my problem seems to be Fancy is loosing weight, not from lack of grain, but perhaps from lack of a quality grain. I am feeding her 50/50 as I always do since we have no dairy feeds. It has been a dry year. I bought her 2 round bales from the first cutting this spring. She nibbled at them at walked away. I recently unrolled them both to find them full of mold.

I then went to the feed store and paid their enormous price for bermuda hay. It looks wonderful, but seems dry. Again, she will NOT eat it.

She loves alfalfa, but there seems to be so much waste so I have been adding alfalfa pellets to her feed, about a quart a day. Still she continues to loose weight and give less and less milk.

I am very seriously considering the weaning of FAT Georgia. She now takes almost all the milk and I am starting to think this may be the 'whole' problem with getting Fancy's weight back on. I have always kept 3 ribs showing and now I definitely see 4.

There is a hay that Wanda's husband bought several miles away that was $6 per square bale. Fancy never wasted a drop. It is orchard grass and alfalfa. I am contimplating if I should fill the barn with this? I am getting rather nervous with winter coming on and an empty barn.

[Joann]

I would pick up the phone and try to get some of that orchard grass and timothy hay. That may be the best deal you are going to see this fall.

I weaned fat Emily when it got so I was getting less than 2 quarts from Helen and Helen was getting thinner. She has been slow to put weight back on but looks ok now I think.

There was a lot of bawling for days. I separated Emily for two months.

[simplynaturalfarm]

Selden, how long have you had your cow and did she come from a dairy? I'm just curious because that does seem like a huge amount to keep her going - my gals would colic on anything over 15lbs of grain a day. Interesting how different cows require different amounts. I found my Janet - from a confimenet dairy - took 3 years before I could cut the grain back and she wouldn't lose weight instantly. Katie - from a pasture based dairy - was given less when I got her (only 6lbs) and I was able to turn her to straight grass and some alfalfa pellet and still get lots.
By the way, the link from Doc is very interesting. I found it last year and it was sure intriging - DH and I were planning on visiting them some day.
Heather

[treespirit]

Here is some interesting info that I got from a livestock book about breeding which some may find useful. It is about heritability. Geneticly inherited versus environmental factors
Dairy cattle: percent inherited;
milk yield.............................20 to 30 %
per cent fat.........................40 to 60 %
mature weight......................60 %
feed efficiency...................... 30 to 40 %
mastitis resistance...............10 to 30 %
beef cattle:
birth weight..........................35-40 %
weaning weight....................25-30 %
yearling weight.....................40-45 %
What this points to I think is that some traits are easier to get thru breeding, whereas some are not. Some traits are or will be more obvious like color for instance. Looking at the total # of daughters that a bull has to evaluate a trait is more important than a pedigree with a specific ancestor. Somebody mentioned feet and legs, which is extremely important to a breed, but may not be as easy to aquire as color or size etc. Some traits that you want may produce other less desirable traits. More milk may equate with less milk fat. Take Dexters as an example. Tastier milk but not as much quantity. Hardier breed than most beef and dairy as it pertains to feed but smaller size overall. So commercially not as viable as holstiens, guernseys, and jerseys for milk and also not the size of angus and herefords for meat but better feed conversion and possibly more meat than on same size beef breeds. And yet still the size and quantity of meat and milk and disposition which makes them most suited for a family cow. They thrive on just pasture and hay alone.
I guess where I am going with this is that genetics does play a role in an animals ability to perform in different areas with differing degrees of success based on which traits you want, but environmental factors are
as important, and the results are more immediate.

[Joann]

These statistics are helpful and I believe are taken seriously withing the dairy industry. Thanks for posting them.

I would especially like to have a discussion of the weight which should be given to grazing genetics. An increasing number of people would like to rely on grazing and feed little or no concentrates. Many family cow owners would prefer the resulting low production. Finding cows that are able to do well on grazing yet are still good milk producers, i.e. don't just "milk off their back" and become emaciated seems to be the goal.

Some graziers are reporting good results in achieving this goal. I am not sure we know to what extent this thriftiness is a result of breeding and to what extent it is the natural developmment of the rumen in heifer calves that either follow their mothers on pasture or are kept in pastured groups. What we do know is that early rumen development and the lifelong metabolism of the cow are different on grazing than on confined feeding.

I think what we don't know is to what extent these developmental directions will prove dependable in daughters. Real changes take several generations. Good results on a single farm reflect keen observation and thoughtful culling. Should the person looking for a family cow pay a premium price for one of these heifers?

Mini Jerseys are adorable but am I justified in advising somebody to pay thousands of dollars extra for traits that are inconsistent?

The Dexter seems well adapted as a family cow, although I note wide variations among the genetic lines. In areas such as mine where Dexters are rare and expensive it would seem that careful study should be given to the decision to buy one without a milking history.

The goal of low milk production seems to me to be especially problematical. It is a 180 degrees away from everything sought by our pre supermarket ancestors for thousands of years. I suspect that selecting a low production cow often turns out a bit like buying a quiet horse. Get the horse home and give it some oats and your quiet horse turns into a fireball.

[jean]

claire said:

I get the SGF, too and they have been on a beef cattle kick for a long time now, with the occasional sheep or goat item tossed in. Nothing about dairy cows .

I found this while looking for something else. From what little I read of the website, they seem to cover dairy cattle fairly well. It's clear they are aimed at bigger farms than most people here have, but still might be useful.


link verified: 2.18.11