***Looking for advice -sudden change in horse ***

[Lee and Lynn]

My daughter purchased her dream horse back in October. She had been saving up for a long time. Cortana is off the track, 7 years old. When we first started looking I was never leaning towards a TB and especially off the track and not young. I wanted to be sure the horse was older and had much training and miles. When we went to see Cortana she was an absolute dream. Calm, good mannered, was ridden by daughter, trailered perfect, and had no vices....perfect really..perfect! Perfect?...but if I could replay the moments leading up you would understand. We brought her home under weight, needing her teeth to be floated, and hooves with shoes and pads. We had trainer come and work with daughter and Cortana and all went good. The first few rides were in a fenced area and then we were comfortable with daughter and horse being ridden out on trails along open fields. Daughter rode Cortana on same trail each time and all went great for 8 weeks. Within these weeks we continued her diet, vet came and vaccinated, teeth were floated, and shoes were taken off and hooves trimmed. All went great and she remained the calm happy horse! I was concerned about the hooves, but farrier took shoes off and she was fine. My daughter rode same day and all was fine that day and forward. Cortana was subjected to many changes, running machines, other animals, she had been stalled several times and also has free choice stalling as well. Cortana never spooked...not once.

After about 8 weeks we started to see some changes...some spook and difference in behavior. The spook was slight, but definitely noticeable. After my daughter rode on one occasion, I went out with Cortana in the field and gave her hay like I would have done any other time. Cortana pinned her ears back and gave me a slight turn of the head, but she stopped and went back to eating after I gave her a verbal. Cortana changed after 8 weeks... My daughter took Cortana for the usual ride, Cortana spooked and bolted sending my daughter out of the saddle and to the ground. Cortana never looked back. Thankfully, daughter is fine, bumps and bruises and shaken up, but fine. A few days after this happened we put Cortana on cross ties, which we had been doing right along. Cortana spooked to the point of busting the cross ties. Thankfully again, we were all fine including Cortana. I would like to get opinions on possible reasons why Cortana may be spooking now, when she was an absolute dream when we purchased her and through the first 8 weeks.

I also want to mention that we are not new to horses. We have had several horses that lived out their long happy lives here on our farm. I have never dealt with a spooky horse and did not intend for this degree of spook. I understand horses spook, but the horse we have now is not the horse we purchased back in Oct.

I don't know where to go from here. Please help.. looking for input.
Lynn

[herbali]

Did Cortana receive rabies vaccine? To me, the symptom picture suggests possible vaccinosis. I would think about homeopathic thuja 30c or ledum.

[Libelle]

Of course any kind of meaningful advice is difficult without seeing the horse but what you may be dealing with is a horse who is feeling fit and comfortable and is now pushing boundaries. She has gained weight and is now being ridden regularly (I'm assuming she wasn't being worked consistently before you got her, maybe that's not the case). She feels good and is increasingly comfortable with her surroundings and its people. 8 weeks in a new place is about the right timing for personalities to emerge.

There could of course be a physical cause for all this. Vision problems come to mind, or pain from an ill-fitting saddle, or any number of things. But excessive spooking can be a resistance, and a pretty effective one too, if it gets the rider off! It can be worked through, with the help of a good trainer. I'd start with a thorough vet exam to rule out physical issues.

A trainer working through this would probably take the horse and your daughter back to the basics, including lots of groundwork. This would build confidence and trust between the two of them. If you have access to the right trainer, and your daughter is capable and willing, it could be a great learning experience for her. Working through problems teaches you way more than smooth sailing does!

[blaithin]

I'm far, far, far from a knowledgeable horse person. I've been blessed with a horse I can be lazy with and get away with just about anything.

That said, I would back up what Libelle says, and even if you can't go for a trainer right now, focus on ground work. Longe her, round pen her if you can, maybe start working on Liberty work. Get her exercising so she doesn't feel her oats so much and help her build a bond with your daughter. Get her using her mind so she isn't thinking about other stuff.

Also see if there's something similar in the spook scenarios. My mare is one giant ball of spook if it's windy. Not while she's out in the pasture of course, just if I have her on a lead or under saddle. Wind is bad for her and I'll purposely avoid doing much with her in the wind.

[suzorse]

is she in a stall smaller area ? or out in a large pasture ? getting grain at all ? as grain can make them hot ( high energy ) being she is off the track , she may have been racing fit ( thinking thin ) when you got her , I would talk to a trainer + a vet and have her evaluated
Suzanne

[browncoat]

You asked for suggestions so here goes....

Have you had her treated for ulcers? They are very common in track horses (like 80+% have them) and it’s possible that after 8 weeks plus a move and change in diet they could have flared up or developed. Ulcers will definitely cause behavior changes, spooking and aggression. All of the OTT horses I handle get treated for ulcers as a matter of course.

Second, did you have a PPE done? If so how thoroughly did you vet? It is entirely possible that there is a physical issue going on here such as kissing spine or any number of other physiological changes that don’t present as lameness in a leg.

It is very possible that she is feeling good and has extra energy now that her work load is less and is gaining weight and she is using that energy to become fractious.

Lastly, off the track horses are different to bring along than horses trained in other jobs. The training they get on the track is so very, very different, many times things just don’t go smooth. It is very normal to have ups and downs on the retraining journey- sometimes you take two steps forward and then unintentionally pirouette out of the arena and bolt down the driveway wondering “where did my brakes and steering go?!?!” If you and your daughter don’t have experience with OTT horses I think getting the help of an expert will help a lot to give you another set of eyes on her.

Best of luck and please stay safe!

[karenp]

What was the situation that you bought here from? I've heard stories in my area of people buying horses from the amish that seemed calm, but that were just exhausted. Once they recovered n there new homes they were different animals.

[Lannie]

I also bought an off the track, 7 year old mare, back when I was young and indestructible. (I would NEVER do that now, LOL!) When I first looked at her, the first thing I noticed was she had a kind eye. She wasn't mean at all, just full of spunk. My husband at the time and my best horse-friend both told me she would kill me and I should shoot her and avoid all those future problems. The NERVE of them! It took a while, but I finally learned her "tells," meaning I could tell by the set of her ears, or her breath, or just the tension in her body, when she was about to spook or buck or crowhop. People will bash me for this, but I would just saw on the reins for a few seconds to make her remember what she was supposed to be doing and who was on her back. It did take a while. (And I always rode with a smooth snaffle, so I didn't do any damage to her mouth, just got her attention real quick.) Soon, all I had to do was say, "Eh!" and she'd stop whatever mischief she had been plotting.  After a few years, she never even attempted shenanigans while I was on her.  Well, the first ride in spring usually involved a bit of frisking, but it wasn't enough to toss me off. 

I had that girl for 22 years and we were like two peas in a pod. No one else wanted to ride her, but they didn't know how to read her mind, and she would still pull crap on someone who was unsuspecting. (Her favorite thing was running to a tree and scraping the offender off on a low branch, ROFL!) After she knew she couldn't buffalo ME anymore, she quit trying, and became a very nice saddle horse. I LOVED riding her, she had such a lovely rolling canter. But for her entire life, she would never take a right lead under saddle. If I turned her to the right, it was like riding in a car with two flat tires - she'd go right, but still be on her left lead. Without a saddle, she'd take a right lead no problem. It just goes to show you how deep the training goes.

She finally passed away, just before her 30th birthday, but the night she did, she came and pressed her head against my chest and just breathed on me for a while, like she was saying, "Mom, I know I've been a pain, but I love you and I'm happy that we shared these years together." I'm sure that was what she was thinking, it came through clear as a bell to me. The next morning, she was curled up in the pasture, having died in her sleep. Bless her heart, I loved that girl. We had the most amazing relationship.

So the moral of the story is, your daughter can work with her and crack her code, so to speak, and have a wonderful companion for years to come. A little guidance from someone more familiar with TB personalities might come in handy, but really, a horse is a horse. And mares are silly, there's no denying that. But sometimes that's what makes them so endearing. On the other hand, it might take a couple years of work (but it would be fun work), so if she's not willing to put the time in, maybe swap out the mare for a good steady gelding. I've had lots of good steady geldings, believe me, but the horse that has the central place in my heart is that bad girl that I loved so much.

[Lee and Lynn]

Thanks so much for the input. I appreciate you all. There were a few questions above:

Rabbies -yes she was vaccinated beginning of Nov. The change in her started a few days afterward because I called the vet thinking it was pain in Cortana's neck from the vaccines. The day I went out with the hay after my daughter rode, I put the hay down for Cortana and reached out to scratch her neck and she pinned ears and turned at me. I was shocked because weeks prior we were practically sitting in her hay and grain before this happened. At times my daughter was feeding her from a bucket she was holding and Cortana never showed aggression.

Cortana is in a large pasture that had grass back in Oct & Nov and still has some green grass now. Cortana has an in/out setup. We do close her into her stall when the weather is stormy.

When we purchased Cortana we continued the same type of grain and the same amount that she was being fed. The amount was 1 1/2 qt twice per day. I confirmed this amount with the vet. When we started to see changes in Cortana we slowly decreased the grain thinking this was the reason and her weight was good. Cortana has free choice hay and just under 1/2 qt. grain. Her weight still looks good.

No PPE was completed on her. We had been searching for a horse for years after we lost our dear Champy (34 years old). We had been keeping an eye on a local farm that seemed to be selling every horse she brought in. She focuses on family friendly horses. I would call her each time she listed and the horse would sell in minutes of listing. The history on Cortana is that she raced four races and won one. Her last race was in 2018. The person I bought her from was going to keep her for herself because her horse won't go out on trails alone. Going out on trails Cortana did VERY well. Cortana would happily trail ride with my daughter. The confidence Cortana had when we first got her here was incredible. My daughter only wants to trail ride. Although daughter stated yesterday that if it comes down to any health issues she will be fine with just loving Cortana through her days.
Lynn

[jerseyrose]

You have gotten so much great advice. Horses don't change for no reason. A horse that was happily( and safely) carrying your daughter on trail for the last 2 months will not ( under normal circumstances) suddenly become dangerous.

I have a couple suggestions and I may be totally off base but this is what I would check and try if you can.

1. What is your daughters pre ride routine? I would NEVER get on a younger/ fresh horse without lunging or some round pen work or arena work to gauge where their mind is at. This has kept me safe on many occasions and well worth the effort and time spent. I still do it with my 16 year old mare and my daughters 18 year old. It is shocking how many times they are sleepy eyed during tacking up and then explode on the lunge line about 2 minutes in. I would rather know then as opposed to 10 minutes down the trail. She may just be feeling too good now that the weather is cooler. She may be a horse who requires some intensive arena riding to get her worked down before you can trail ride safely ( at least in the cooler months).

2. Weight gain and building muscle can easily mean the saddle no longer fits and is causing pain. They then compensate on how they move under saddle to try and eliminate the pain and then they hurt all over. Then they can get grumpy and irritable as in " don't touch me" attitude.

3. Race track life, then being at the sale place and then coming to your place can equal ULCERS. All her symptoms can be caused by ulcers. Is she an only horse at your place as well? Living solo can be stressful for some.

4. She is taking advantage of your daughter and quickly becoming the boss over all of you. Sometimes this happens so gradually we never see it but the results can be alarming. A good trainer may be a real help as you get to know each other.

I try to not give mass vaccines at one time as it can cause them to have a reaction. It sounds like she had neck pain at the injection site but that wouldn't cause all her current issues, at least I don't think it would.

5. She needs a different feed. As per my vets advice when I purchased my youngster in Feb he had me start him on Purina Impact Mare & Foal at 4 pounds per day . My guy was so quiet when I got him, at that time he was getting Purina Ultium ( same amount) but I couldn't get it. After about 6 weeks on the Impact he was a mouthy mess and so high energy I wondered what had happened to him. I thought it was the new grass... Once he hit 2 he was getting too heavy so I changed him over to Purina Ration Balancer feed only and in a few weeks the change was astounding. Try looking at your feed for sugar % , NSC values and soy. Many horses react to those and when you add in cooler weather-- hang on.

There are so many feeds to choose from it can be overwhelming to know what to feed , but sometimes you need to change things once they gain the needed weight no matter what the breed.

6. If you can afford it maybe have the vet out to do an exam/ check for soreness, ovarian cyst and draw blood to check for lyme and whatever else the vet thinks may contribute to her some of her changes.

Sometimes it is a simple fix and I hope that is the case for your daughter. In the end It may be that the horse is too much for her at this time, but I hope not. TB's can be a whole different animal .

[thystledown]

check for lymes. Lyme disease can cause all kinds of symptoms, but behavior changes are the biggest. Of my 7 horses, 4 have had it. One has had it twice. I even vaccinate for it and used to use serresto collars on their pasterns. But you are in lymes country even worse than we are and our ticks test 70% positive for lymes. (One poor pony has had lymes twice and anaplasmosis too. And EPM, but that isn't ticks. He's fine and healthy now btw). One girlfriend here had to have her quiet old plodding gelding put down because of the behavior changes from lymes, but that was some years ago, and I think they can treat better now. If your horse tests positive, you will need to do the oral antibiotics (doxy twice a day I think) which is not fun. Anything you can do to support the immune system after that is critical. Hope you find your answers.

Edited to add:  I have mountain horses that 4H kids ride.  Super docile and friendly.  but I have one mare who is hormonal late fall and spring.  Ugh!  Hope you have something other than that.  That is a dr jekyl mr hyde sort of change.  She will even drive the other horses through the fence.  the rest of the year I put beginning riders on her.  And she was an absolute sweet heart when she had a foal.  We could do anything with that foal and with her as long as she was nursing and for quite a while after until the regular cycles kicked in.  It is how mares get a bad name even though she's the only one like this in my whole life with horses (including racing standardbreds as a kid).

[Jes]

You have some fantastic suggestions here! I hope you're able to figure out the cause of the change! I agree with having a vet do a full physical exam, and lab panels for common ailments. If the vet isn't experienced with chiropractic adjustments I would also suggest finding a good equine chiropractor to give her a once over.

What you said about your mare made me think of my friends' fractious mare. If she could dump a rider she would absolutely leave them in the dust. If you wanted to ride the mare you had to work through the attitude so she knew it was more work to try to dump you than to simply go along with what you asked. Once you got past her testing you, she was a dream! We rode bareback with only halter and lead for hours, but it took some determination at the beginning of each ride because she tested every rider, every time.

All that to say, barring medical problems, some horses will steal a mile if they're offered an inch. I hope you keep us updated!! What is the mare's name?? We'd love to see a photo if you feel like sharing! 😃

[elnini]

We picked up an off the track TB, sold as a stock horse but we were lied to. And I'd say every set of hands she'd been through were lied to. We retired her, I don't believe in handing on problems and sending on a problem horse is one way to end up with it being abused or neglected. We even paid agistment for her back in NSW for six years after we moved here, til she got a joint infection and the vet said prognosis was nil.

She was terrific on the ground, hubby used to duck under her belly, sit with her while she was laying down, lead her by the forelock, you name it. She could be ridden and was beautiful in the arena doing dressage. But she was never happy being ridden. Had some really good horse movement people look at her, did some adjustments, but she was still never happy being ridden. Wasn't even a spooker or bolter, more like a cow in that she'd stop and look rather than run, but something in her she just didn't like being under the saddle. If we'd stayed in NSW I'd have tried her in harness.

Sometimes being OTT does more to their bodies and heads than can be accounted for by pain or injury. If she's not a great riding horse see how she goes in harness. And in a pinch, Charlie was an ace paddock pal for a number of old geldings who loved her dearly. Your girl may be some horse's soul mate.

[Lee and Lynn]

Thanks soooo much...all great advice and information! I have left a message for vet and she is going to call me on Monday. I was in a conversation with my sister-in-law and she happened to tell me that my niece's horse just got tested for lyme and came up positive. The horse just all of a sudden did not want to be touched and was biting whoever came to handle the horse.

Our dear girl's name is Cortana. I will try to post photos. We have not posted photos here in a while because we were using photobckt and now they charge a fee to store your photos..

Cortana is next to Lilly, Darcy and Buttercup our 3 Jerseys. They are separated by electric fence and share a common fence line. Cortana loves her new Cow friends for sure. Cortana was not having issues leaving the cows, but at the initial few weeks Cortana did not like to be left by the cows. Lilly leaves to be milked twice a day and I believe this has been good therapy for Cortana. Cortana knows Lilly is coming back. Cortana was not that dramatic about Lilly leaving. She would call out once and go back to grazing or eating her hay. This struck me as interesting from the start because a race horse would not want to be left behind and maybe it was in her training along the way. I hope Cortana is not lonely or in any discomfort. I wish they could just talk to us. I will keep you all posted. Lynn

[jerseyrose]

Any update Lee and Lynn ?

[Lee and Lynn]

Oh my word time has gone by... and I kept wanting to come back for an update for you all.

Cortana is such a sweet girl and she seems to be doing fine.

I had a conversation with her vet and the conclusion right now is that it was most likely the grain amount and the weight gain. I was so focused on getting the weight on Cortana. She was so thin I just did not even think about it at the time, until afterwards. If this is all it was, I will be forever thankful that it is not anything else. Cortana has not been spooky like she was and if there is something that gets her attention she stops to think before she reacts. Cortana's weight is good and she is maintaining with very little grain.

We did have a coyote right in front of our barn the other day. DH got him. Oh my word he was big boned. I still can't believe the size of him. We are thinking that maybe this could have been part of the reason too.

Cortana had her hooves trimmed today and she practically fell asleep. As far as riding we are going to take things slow. I have been doing some reading on OTTBs and what Cortana's life was before she came to us. My daughter and I have been scratching her neck, her face and ears, but Cortana was having no reaction. Just the other day, for the first time, Cortana was enjoying the scratch behind her ears.

I wish I could share a photo. Does anyone have recommendations on photo uploading?

[mommasquilts]

The Tapatalk app on a smartphone is the easiest way to post photos

[Lee and Lynn]

Jan 16, 2021 8:17:34 GMT -5 mommasquilts said:

The Tapatalk app on a smartphone is the easiest way to post photos

Thanks mommasquilts, but no smartphones here.

[thystledown]

I use fb for photo hosting. Easy to upload a photo there and then right click on the photo to get the "copy image address." That address can be used to post a photo on here. If you don't use fb, you still have to have a photo hosting site of some kind. FB is free, so that's why I use it.

[jerseyrose]

Jan 16, 2021 9:02:36 GMT -5 Lee and Lynn said:

Jan 16, 2021 8:17:34 GMT -5 mommasquilts said:

The Tapatalk app on a smartphone is the easiest way to post photos

Thanks mommasquilts, but no smartphones here.

www.imgbb.com

1.Upload them right off the computer.

2. Choose the " BB Full Linked" under the tab embedded codes ( right under the picture you uploaded).

3.Highlight, copy and paste ( HERE) the long code right under the embedded codes section.

It is really easy and no signing up or anything. It is free.