None of us KFC'rs need to soak grains or throw out the bran!

[jaymealaska]

So - I'm a traditional foods, Weston Price, Pottenger and the other 15 doctors who have added to the traditional foods/nutrient dense foods lifestyle. I have been struggling with the soaking grains thing for a while... SO much info... So, today I sat down and really dug deep. I was going through Ramiel Nigel's website about phytic acid and its detrimental effects on the body.

Stated multiple times in his article, he points out that if there's large amounts of raw milk or raw cheese eaten with the grains, it mitigates the effects of phytic acid and, lactobacillus and other types of friendly gut flora also fix the issue with phytic acid by releasing phytase - the enzyme that breaks down phytic acid and make the effects of this anti-nutrient not very concerning. How does one get lots of healthy gut flora? Through our wonderful raw milk.

So, essentially, this guy and all these other traditional foodies make this HUGE deal out of soaking grains, some even saying to remove all the bran (the nutrient dense portion in the grain), sprouting and souring grains to break down phytic acid.... they even point out that large amounts of milk counteract the anti-nutrient... but they keep pushing it and then everyone gets worried about it.

Well folks, all of us KFC members are released from the anti-nutrient worries as long as we're drinking large amounts of raw milk. I just wish these authors would make a bigger deal out of just adding bigger amounts of raw dairy to people's diets instead of saying to avoid life bringing grains or removing important nutrients from the grains.. or instructing people to do more work than they really need to do if they have the proper diet.

Here's some of the stuff I found:


"Historically, the cultivation of grains usually accompanies the raising of dairy animals; high levels of calcium in the diet mitigates the mineral-depleting effects of phytic acid."

"Thus, absorbable calcium from bone broths and raw dairy products, and vitamin D from certain animal fats, can reduce the adverse effects of phytic acid."

"In general, humans do not produce enough phytase to safely consume large quantities of high-phytate foods on a regular basis. However, probiotic lactobacilli, and other species of the endogenous digestive microflora can produce phytase.27 Thus, humans who have good intestinal flora will have an easier time with foods containing phytic acid. Increased production of phytase by the gut microflora explains why some volunteers can adjust to a high-phytate diet."

Mangendie, a researcher, found that dogs fed only wheat bran lived long and healthy lives but dogs fed flour with the bran removed died within 45 days. Providing evidence that bran holds the vital nutrients needed for vibrant health. Hippocrates, the ancient father of medicine, recommended bread with the bran still intact for bowel and overall health.

Dr. Price found after 10 years of traveling to primitive cultures that in order to get close to matching the primitive culture's vitamin and mineral intake, American's would have to at least double the recommended daily minimums listed by the United States Department of Labor and Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Chapter 15 in Price's book

So, essentially.. Just consume large amounts of nutrient dense foods, get lots of lactobacilli bacteria in your gut, get lots and lots of vitamin D and K2, and stay away from junk food and you really should be vibrantly healthy.

[guernseygirl]

Thanks for this - I will be reviewing it again.

I've been struggling with the soaking vs sprouting vs gluten free vs sourdough vs grain free argument. (and red wheat vs kamut vs einkorn.....etc) I just don't really believe that cutting out an entire food group is a good decision. I even know some WAPFers that will eat white rice or white flour pasta (as special treats/emergency quick meals) if they can't soak or sprout to avoid the phytates.

Back to whole grains eaten whole or ground at home.

[treatlisa]

It really can become confusing.

While I think it is beneficial to learn from the past and find the wisdom buried there, the battle we fight today is a different one. I have listened to Jeffrey Smith speak on GMO's and Round-up (many times) and it would be wonderful if he is wrong. But my instincts tell me he is not wrong. I've given up on hoping he is wrong. I think his information helps to explain a lot of what we are seeing in todays health problems. Is it the only thing?... no. But I see it as being a very large part of the problem.

I like to keep an eye on this info as it unfolds before us and like any good mystery, there are twists and turns to keep us guessing as this story unfolds. Because of the disruption (devastation?) these foods have on our gut bacteria, I'm not sure we can just settle in, get comfortable and use ancient strategies to prepare our food. We have a whole new puzzle to figure out. Unfortunately we are not dealing with the same food our ancestors did.

Many of us have our own dairy products and I'm sure that helps but how many of of grow our own wheat and other grains? To feed to our livestock?? Every time I hear him speak I double down on cleaning up what we eat. It has been a slow awakening over the last few years but I believe we ignore it at our own peril.

I didn't realize until recently that, while not being GMO's, wheat, potatoes, sweet potatoes, sugar cane (and more, I'm sure) are killed with round-up just before harvesting. There are perfectly sound reasons for doing this if you believe Round-up isn't a problem. According to Jeffrey Smith, the Round-up doesn't hurt us as humans - but it devastates our gut bacteria as well as blocks certain minerals' absorption. Even if you have been avoiding GMO's like I have been, if you are not buying these things organic (or growing your own), you are getting a wonderful dose of very effective gut bacteria destroying food with every mouthful- soaked or not. I think this is why so many people have found relief by avoiding grains and sugars. ?? Granted it helps to avoid the extra carbs (IMO) but it is more than that.

This saga is not over and far from being figured out by anyone but I am on the edge of my seat watching, learning and trying to understand as much as I can for what I feel is the most important issue of our time. Well, ok, Islamic terrorists and their ideology rank up there too. I feel like I have a better chance of dealing with the former so that is where my focus is.

I'm no poetry buff but the words of this poem I came across a couple of years ago really struck me so I'll share it in case it resonates with anyone else... It's the last paragraph that speaks to me.  (emphasis mine)

"Was the Mayflower launched by cowards, steered by men behind their time?
Turn those tracks toward Past or Future, that made Plymouth Rock sublime?
They were men of present valor, stalwart old iconoclasts,
Unconvinced by axe or gibbet that all virtue was the Past's;

But we make their truth our falsehood, thinking that hath made us free,
Hoarding it in mouldy parchments, while our tender spirits flee


The rude grasp of that great Impulse which drove them across the sea.
They have rights who dare maintain them; we are traitors to our sires,
 
Smothering in their holy ashes Freedom's new-lit altar-fires;
 
Shall we make their creed our jailer?
Shall we, in our haste to slay,
 
From the tombs of the old prophets steal the funeral lamps away
 
To light up the martyr-fagots round the prophets of to-day?

New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth;
 
They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of Truth;

Lo, before us gleam her camp-fires! we ourselves must Pilgrims be,
 
Launch our Mayflower, and steer boldly through the desperate winter sea,
 
Nor attempt the Future's portal with the Past's blood-rusted key."  
- Thomas Lowell

[wyomama]

Becky - another piece to the puzzle? 

I'm following this, as it's great information and something I've been wondering about.

It's undeniable that a lot of people react to *something* in terms of grains (especially wheat and refined sugars) but I know people who have celiac disease or are allergic to gluten, and if they get it, they have a lot more problems than being gassy. 

I myself have noticed that if I get much refined sugar, my feet ache and burn.  Honey doesn't seem to have the same effect. 

This makes all too much sense. 

[AnnB (NE)]

I keep hearing about wheat farmers using Roundup to dry the crop for harvest. It sure doesn't happen around here! The only way it's viable is through aerial application. No wheat farmer in his right mind is going to drive over that field that close to harvest. The grain put on the ground by the equipment would far outstrip any perceived gains from using the Roundup.

Just because the chemical manufacturer says it can be done doesn't mean that it's a widespread practice, or that it's done at all.

Ann B

[aww12]

Dec 7, 2014 10:47:44 GMT -5 AnnB (NE) said:

I keep hearing about wheat farmers using Roundup to dry the crop for harvest. It sure doesn't happen around here! The only way it's viable is through aerial application. No wheat farmer in his right mind is going to drive over that field that close to harvest. The grain put on the ground by the equipment would far outstrip any perceived gains from using the Roundup.

Just because the chemical manufacturer says it can be done doesn't mean that it's a widespread practice, or that it's done at all.

Ann B

But I read it on the internet so it must be true- right???  Snopes offers some help in  sorting the myths from the facts.

[treatlisa]

The Snope's article was helpful and since I don't live in wheat county I have not seen it myself. I grew up in cotton country and defoliation by arial spraying was routine. While I believe the commenters who shared how they personally harvest and their knowledge of the industry - this passage leaves the notion open for me:

Q: Is there a difference between desiccation and pre-harvest herbicide application?

A: Yes, and the use is a matter of preference. True desiccants are harvest management tools that rapidly kill above ground growth of crops and weeds. This allows for rapid dry down and an earlier harvest. Desiccants will not give long-term weed control and any late moisture may cause both the weeds and the crop to start to re-grow.

Pre-harvest glyphosate application is generally used for perennial weed control. It can be used as a harvest management tool for dry down but the effects take much longer to appear. Pre-harvest glyphosate is a good tool for long-term control of perennial weeds such as Canada thistle, quackgrass, toadflax and dandelions.

Read more at www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.asp#Bm0YUbeGKTjUOTQb.99

So let's say it isn't used as a desiccant/defoliater but used for control of the perennial weeds while the wheat is naturally ending its cycle. Could this be where some of the confusion is coming from? I'm asking - I don't know.

Much of what I read/listen to is taken with a grain of salt, while more info is gathered and rebuttals/discussions ensue. This wheat/round-up thing has been kicked around for awhile (not just from one article) and I hope, as many have said, that it is not true on a broad scale. And because Pope's article was apparently poorly researched - that still leaves the question of what *IS* going on with all the sensitivities to foods that have never bothered us before? Something is definitely different in these times as opposed to when I grew up. And in my opinion, it is more than whether you soak grains or not.

Change in gut bacteria is a likely culprit but why? Antibiotics? Highly processed food? Simple carbs in huge quantities? Toxins? All the above?

I use round-up myself for the occasional bindweed that rears it's ugly head but I wouldn't use it in my garden or spray liberally in my pasture. And just because there was a review according to Snope's that came out in 2000 saying there is no problem with Round-up for humans... I don't take much comfort in that. I have very little trust left for that sort of thing.

Looking forward to this discussion and other's ideas.

Lisa

[simplynaturalfarm]

Just because Nebraska doesn't do it does not mean it isn't done - spraying crops to get them to mature is VERY common up here where they are all trying to get the grain crops in as fast as possible to make time for edible beans and then beets. I have had gardens wrecked because I did not realize I was using round upped straw on them for mulch. A few of the old timers do not do it and if you are saving seed or selling the straw for horticultural mulch you are not supposed to spray with round up, but otherwise it is widely practiced here. Either the sprayers with small wheels or aerial, but they also do it with all the potatoes - one day lovely green fields, next day brown. We are surrounded by it because of our growing season - the older gentleman who rents my FIL's field doesn't spray and he didn't get 2 fields off before the rain - they rotted in the windrow and when that happens he nods and says there is a reason people do it. He doesn't do it because of ethical reasons though, he just said it doesn't make sense when he is not in a rush as he is a smaller farmer.

[funnymamma]

Thanks jaymealaska and treatlisa. Great info. The only thing I have to add is that snopes.com is NOT an independent, unbiased resource as many believe them to be. Do some looking into their sources and their funding and it leaves a lot to be questioned....

[simplynaturalfarm]

I would disagree that we can discard our soaking and otherwise. All he said was that
bone broths and raw dairy products, and vitamin D from certain animal fats, can reduce the adverse effects of phytic acid - humans who have good intestinal flora will have an easier time with foods containing phytic acid.

We don't know how much we would have to consume to reduce the adverse effects. I do not always consume bone broths nor a lot of animal fat (although I am not against animal fat and try to consume a lot). I do not always consume fermented products, and some days I only consume cream in coffee.

If we know there are adverse effects from it why not reduce it via soaking or sourdough? I think it is a lot of things - who knows if it is the supposed new varieties, gmo, round up, too much of something or what, but I do know more people are becoming more and more sensitive to things including my sister and two brothers since leaving the farm (and we did not grow our own wheat) and now my own daughter who can't have anything that is not sourdough. Unfortunately a lot of the people I know who were sensitive to sourdough, eventually become gluten intolerant and I am wondering if the lifestyle, food choices, or simply our chemical laden environment is causing us to be more and more sensitive and if making sourdough while consuming our own meat and milk will make it so that we don't have to cut it out completely at some point like so many others, I'd rather sourdough away, although I did cut grain completely out of our diets for a year. I am so sold on the benefits of sourdough (anybody find my old thread where I had cited all the research, especially to do with blood sugar, diabetics etc) that I would probably do without bread rather than make it normally. Not that we don't have the odd bun that isn't sourdough, but you also get so used to the flavor that regular bread is simply bland. And since eating starting sourdough only, we all notice we have upset stomachs rather quickly when having regular breads.

[Rhoda]

I was listening to a conversation between a couple of farmers, and they do it here. Not sure how it is done, but I think I am going to find out. I have been reading about how instead of being gluten intolerant, like so many are now, it is intolerance to the spray. I a firm believer that it is not the food that is giving us problems, it is what is done to the food.

[rosalind]

We soak our barley in milk for the chickens overnight. They seem to do well (knock on wood) and have been producing well this winter. We do it just to soften the grain for digestibility. I haven't gotten technical enough to look into phytic acid. LOL

When things get this complicated I always just say we try to eat fresh foods from our farm, our own meat, dairy, vegetables, etc. Try to limit how much is brought in from elsewhere, because you just don't know.

I mean, we buy Costco chocolate chips and my dad just called and sure enough, they use GMO sugar in the chocolate chips. Sadness. Yet another item we lose from our "OK to buy" list.

[jaymealaska]

Looking through Dr. Price's book of all his research, cultures that had beautiful, disease free teeth drank milk and had bread - there were some other cultures with neither milk or bread. Contrary to what lots of folks say about soaking grains, many cultures did not do that. Ancient Israelites used leavened and unleavened bread, but did not soak the grains. There was also different qualities of flour depending on how much bran had been removed and how fine the flour was.

Baitu tribe in Africa (chapter 9):
“This group lives largely on dairy products from cattle and goats, together with sweet potatoes, cereals [grains] and bananas. In a study of 364 teeth of thirteen individuals, not a single tooth was found to have been attacked by dental caries.”

"In a study of 4,280 teeth of the children of these high valleys [Switzerland], only 3.4 per cent were found to have been attacked by tooth decay.” [these people's main grain staple was the heavily criticized oat!) And people living off of oats and seafood on the Isle of Lewis off the coast of Scotland were noted to experience a tooth decay rate of 1.3 percent.

-The mission at Masaka in Uganda: 0.4 percent tooth decay out of 664 teeth
-The Wanande Tribe in the Belgian Congo: 2.2 percent tooth decay out of 368 teeth
-The Dinkas in Sudan: 0.2 percent tooth decay out of 592 teeth

All the above people groups relied heavily on grains.

There are studies that show how much of certain minerals a certain amount of phytic acid can block at a time (I'll try finding that again). However, there's a limit depending on how much phytic acid is consumed. So, if your're eating a meal and the phytic acid blocks say 50-60% of some of the minerals in that meal, you can still consume something else 2 hours from that point and digest all the minerals you need. Or, just consume more milk/mineral rich foods than bread at the time of the meal. Phytic acid has a lot of good things to offer to the body as well, including cancer fighting abilities. The problem with our modern culture is that people have used antibiotics for everything, pasteurized milk, sterilized foods - down to veggies! So what these people are trying to do, IMHO, is correct this problem because people have deficiencies even though they're over fed. We, as a culture, don't consume the same amounts of nourishing foods that our great grandparents or primitive cultures did. So by cutting out phytic acid for the average American, that will impact them in a huge way as they learn to eat nutrient dense foods.

Israelites had dairy animals and grains with minimal dental problems. Recently an ancient Israelite family tomb was found with over 200 years of family dental history with 52 individuals' sets of teeth. The only people who had signs of very minimal cavities were people over 50. Nobody else had cavities in the family line - that's a family dental history nearly as long as our country's history! Pretty good stuff But anyway, the researchers stated that this family subsisted on mostly grains, making up at least 60% of their diet. Barley and wheat were the staples of the time.

Now, I wasn't saying that if a person isn't focused on being healthy and getting a healthy gut flora with good vitamin D levels and saturated fats that they don't have to be concerned. If a person knows they pretty much have their bases covered and their teeth aren't falling apart, they're probably well balanced nutritionally. It's just that cow owners have unlimited milk access, which lessens the problem of anti-nutrients through an over abundance of vitamins and minerals and healthy bacteria.

Our current population is riddled with sensitivities and allergies, so try to plan for the NEXT generation's health the most. My punkin' is 1 1/2 years old and doesn't get sick, is strong and healthy, and his 5 little teeth are beautiful. He doesn't get anything from a package and no regular sugar. He gets freshly milled (unsoaked) whole wheat cakes fried in butter, raw milk and cream throughout the day, fermented cod liver oil, homegrown meat, homemade cheeses, fresh eggs, veggies, etc. I guess he's my ultimate experiment... But, so far, he's thriving with no tooth decay. Folks always get surprised when they first pick him up because of how much he weighs for his size - nutrient dense! hehe

Grains aren't bad. We just have to consume a lot more nutrient dense foods to prevent decay, IMHO. More animal fats/meats and less veggies.

[jaymealaska]

Treatlisa - the poem you shared:

New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth;

They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of Truth;

Lo, before us gleam her camp-fires! we ourselves must Pilgrims be,

Launch our Mayflower, and steer boldly through the desperate winter sea,

Nor attempt the Future's portal with the Past's blood-rusted key."
- Thomas Lowell


Is it saying that in order to steer boldly into the future, we must be like the pilgrims who left all they once knew to make a new beginning and forget what had been tried before? It makes sense for leaving old tyrannical governments behind - throwing away the blood-rusted key and not trying to start a new life with that same type of system. But I'm not sure if it resonates with me on a food level - if we were to take that paragraph and apply it to primitive cultures and modern food and leaving all those behind, we'd be forced to leave behind everything and start over and make up our own ideas on food (which is actually what modern food is!). But with thousands of years of human history, I think we can just start there and study their diets, teeth and overall health. I guess we could be foodie pilgrims that are leaving and heading back to a time/place forgotten

[simplynaturalfarm]

My sweet 5 year old was raised on whole grains, ALL home produced grassfed meats and raw dairy and has issues with wheat.

Our environment today is nothing like the Israelites and other cultures even from 100 years ago. I live in the middle of modern ag here - sugar beets and potatoes. To think that I am getting the minerals I need from my food even raised here is a bit of a stretch - the neighbor raises soy and corn . . .

I wasn't talking tooth issues, I was meaning overall health. I don't think I am overeating minerals or healthy food and so to me, if soaking makes it so I can absorb 1/4 more minerals in my food, I think it is worth it. That or I won't eat the grains - I find it a bit of a stretch to do a "phew, I don't have to soak my grain anymore because Ramiel says so". Kind of like putting a Christian twist on a tree so I can put up a CHristmas tree.

But I do think it is wonderful that you are all so healthy - that is a blessing!
I thought I was so healthy til I had a5 year old who cries 30 seconds after she eats regular bread.

[jaymealaska]

Obviously, it won't be the same for everyone - each person needs to know what their issues are. I'm just saying that there may be no need to soak for folks who consume a lot of milk/cheese/saturated fats. But, if a person LIKES the taste or if someone does much better on soaked grains, go for it!

Ramiel is actually staunchly against grains, saying they shouldn't be in the diet at all because of phytic acid but if they are, the flour should be soaked and all the bran (the nutritional portion that also holds the phytic acid) removed and only consumed in small amounts. I just brought up some quotes from him because, just like lots of other traditional food folks, they focus heavily on soaking but only lightly touch on subjects like I shared. I bring up teeth, because Price and lots of other folks, like Ramiel, see the teeth as the barometer of the body, if you have nutritional deficiencies, lots of the time you can tell by the health of your mouth and teeth. Just like horse hooves tell you if the horse's overall body is healthy or inflamed. Your teeth will be the first to start falling to infection/disease if you're lacking certain vital nutrients (vit D, C, Mag, zinc, protein, omega 3s, etc).

Now, food getting less nutritionally dense across the board isn't correct. Lots of grains have increased in nutritive value and others have declined, same with a lot of different fruits and veggies. Some modern wheats are significantly more nutritious than ancient wheats. Salmon and other seafood have probably not changed much. Wild berries, fruits, grasses, etc probably haven't either - Alaskan wild blueberries are known for having 5 times the amount of antioxidants than any other blueberry in the US market. Soil depletion isn't happening on every square inch of this country either and a lot of folks manage their own cows on their own pastures, so the soil is naturally fertilized making for continuously healthful milk and meat.

I think it's still very possible to achieve the primitive culture's health, but it's a generational thing as each new generation heals and improves more than the previous generation. We need to go back to liberal amounts lard, tallow, butter, and heavy cream usage to help shorten the nutritional gaps we need to make up for.

[simplynaturalfarm]

Without meaning to argue, I would just like to clarify - it sounds like you thought I was saying food is not nutritionally dense. My point in saying that my 15 acres here is not what it was 100 years ago is because of the changes in farming and we know that food is very different than it was years ago. No matter how "organically" i am on my 15 acres, my neighbors 640 acres surrounding me when he sprays 3x a week for fungus, bugs, wilt etc is affecting me and in my soil. For all I know it is in every square inch of my soil (I don't think I even want to know . . . )

A few years ago my uncle took us for a tour in a deep potash mine. It was not open to the public, he requested to bring his family as he was doing safety work on the mine. It was one of the coolest things I will ever do and as we went in their 6 wheeled all terrain vehicles in their maze of city under ground, ducking because it felt like the roof was caving in (we were supposedly at least a mile under ground and had taken a tiny elevator down), my uncle asked the fellow giving us the tour what was dripping all over us all the time. The fellow said "farming chemicals" My uncle said very astounded "you are not serious?" The guy said they had tested it multiple times and it was chemical residues from farming that were in the water. The guy didn't care in the slightest, he wasn't worried in the slightest and I thought how can one ever hope to be "organic" in a farming area if it is permeating that deeply.

The choices we make nowadays ARE affecting the fertility of our soil and that affects how nutrient dense our foods are. I am doing my best to be healthy, but I do not think it is possible to achieve a different generation's health the same way simply because of our environment being so tremendously different.

OF course, I don't know if I would want to go back a generation where something as simple as a wound could kill me or where 1 out of 3 children died before reaching adulthood, and your average lifespan was 46 years. If I was born back then, I would not be alive right now, as I had spinal meningitis at 18 months and was in the hospital for 2 months on IV's and had to learn to sit and walk all over again after I was released.

It is not that bad of an era to be born into. . I am just tremendously pragmatic to a fault and optimists can embrace the good and look forward to a bright future while I pragmatically plug along

[jaymealaska]

... Wow. chemicals a mile down, huh? That's depressing... I'm unfortunately an optimist, but my husband is a pragmatic, realist type too and pulls me back down to earth when needed... lol!

I guess I'll just have to stay in Alaska for a while longer then, since we don't have that same kind of agricultural problem up here. I just read study after study in Europe (cause they aren't scared of raw milk) showing just how much raw milk improves health in so many areas like allergies, gut flora, diseases, bone strength, etc. Then add whole, minimally processed foods, saturated fats, fish, free range chicken eggs, fresh honey, etc with each one improving on something in the body. I just see continual improvements happening in a body that's under nourished.

I've just started looking into essential oils and see a real benefit to some of their uses, like Basil as an example.. That oil breaks down chemicals made from petroleum, so you can put a drop on a balloon or a styrofoam cup/plate and it chews a hole right through it. So by ingesting it, it can break down these chemicals that are stored within our bodies. So, my thought is on this pollution issue is that we can combat pollution through proper died (because our bodies can help get rid of toxins) and possibly essential oils and other things that help detox.

But then, that drops the overall future outlook on success and health for people down to very slim.. They'd have to be quite detail oriented and all well educated in all these things.

[simplynaturalfarm]

And part of it I do feel is not living in intensely farmed area (Alaska is gorgeous ) - we constantly talk about the need to move somewhere that is not intensive farming or agriculture (and not overhead spraying maybe!), but the problem is that a lot of places that are not that way are not friendly to animals (have to irrigate, have to ship in hay/feed, hard to be sustainable), or insanely expensive. I think that's why a lot of KFCers start posts asking where to move

We need optimists - I am married to an extreme optimist and he is balancing me out also

[simchah]

Fascinating post. At first I was doing the happy dance about not needing to soak. However, there are a lot of good points here.

I had wondered about how true the intense spraying crops with chemicals was. Around here is it beef and if not beef it is dairy and large gardens. Areal spraying just isn't needed for those. However, I have had to deal with crazy claims about dairy. It seems many healthy companies try to make their product seem healthier than what is normally sold by making claims that are true for all the product being sold but by their claiming it, it leads people to think they are doing something extra and the others are not doing it. (basically deceitful advertising by the "it's good for you and healthier" companies that make people think the worst of other companies) Since, I see how they twist the stuff I figured that maybe it was the same for other fields of agriculture and that it wasn't as bad as is claimed. It sounds, sadly, like this isn't true.

Also, good points about the lack of minerals. Several years ago, my grandma had found a test that was done on the soil and compared it to soil from 100 years ago and found it was lacking the minerals that had been in the soil years ago. I wish, I had payed more attention at the time to what it was she told me about. I would love to be able to give that study a closer look. However, it is not hard to believe.