cover crop question

[Stacy]

I have a small garden area (approx. 75 x 75 feet) that I'd like to plant a cover crop of 70% winter grain rye and 30% field peas on. I've never attempted this, so really don't know if I'm trying the right thing anyway.
My question is, can my cattle eat this cover crop come spring if I just fence it in and let them on it? Is there anything about it that will make them sick? Do I have to harvest the field peas before letting the cattle on it? I was hoping to put some "life" back into the garden. Is the point of the cover crop to till it under, rather than letting the cattle eat it, in order to help my soil, or would them enjoying the top portions defeat the purpose of it?

We've had terrible garden years the last couple of years, between the huge amount of weeds we're getting and the huge amount of rain we get in the spring. The cover crop, I'm hoping, would choke out the weeds as well as help the soil.

I already tried pigs over the area and that didn't work. The bugs were awful. This year, I put poultry over the entire area so we used a different area that was successful for us in the past, but not at all this year! BUGS and WEEDS!

So in order to prepare for the next spring, I am wondering about these cover crops I was reading about. We will move the poultry all over to the garden we tried this year. I can then do a light till and plant this "stuff". Come spring, I could let the cattle on the area for a week, till this "stuff" under, make rows closer together than what my husband has been, cover the entire area in straw, then plant. My hopes are that the poultry killed enough bugs throughout an entire year of seasons in the area to give us a chance, plus the contributed their poop. The cover crops would help fix the soil and the straw would help keep down the overabundant weeds. If we get another warm winter, I have to try and be ready.
I'm at my wits end with this garden and about ready to quit all together and just use the very small space we've made out of raised bed gardens (which does NOT provide enough to can!).

I am hoping one last, huge assault will provide me with enough "hope" to keep trying every year! But another year like the last few have been out there and I just quit. (And I really LOVE gardening and spring time!!!)

I'm open to any and all ideas on how to work the garden NOW in order to get it ready for spring!

[Stacy]

PS. We have a small tractor to work with and a tiller attachment.
I don't know where to get soil tested. We've bought kits but have no clue how to read them.
Things I KNOW were wrong with the area are too many bugs (mainly squash bugs/stink bugs), and too many weeds.
My husband thought putting the rows further apart so he could till in between would be better, I know every year he's gotten further apart, the weeds have gotten worse and harder to pull by hand!! (I think he's leaving too much room for them to grow!!)
I don't mind using commercial bug/weed killers too much, but don't want to too often if I can avoid it.
I've not found organic weed killers/bug killers to be of much good here, maybe because our home is on what used to be a field and there's still one directly across the street where they do spray commercial products.

[kristi]

The cows can eat the field peas. As with anything new, turn the cows loose on it for a short period of time and then lengthen that time as they get used to it. The legumes will help nitrogen back in the soil. Another thing good for the soil is vetch. And the cows can eat it too. Just make sure it's eaten down or mown before it blooms as it'll seed.

Good luck!

[Debbie Lincoln]

Don't want to discourage you, but I have been gardening big time for 40 years - NOTHING gets "rid" of weeds, other than hoeing or (as you are planning) covering them up with straw. We use grass clippings from our huge yard. I spread newspapers a couple layers thick between the rows, lay the grass on top, and water it. It's easy to till in later. Straw may not be as easy. I haul poop in from every source available. Alpaca can be put on straight. Less horse and cow (unless its composted) and smaller amounts of poultry and rabbit poop. We plant WIDE rows so we can till or harrow between until the grass is spread. Then hoe or hand weed up close to the plants. DO NOT USE HERBICIDES - none are safe. Straight vinegar will kill weeds - and if you have really high PH soils, like we do, it'll improve that too. Just be sure to use it on a still day.

[Tricia]

Oats and peas might work better. Up here in the north Winter Rye can be tricky and timing is everything to get it down before it goes to seed. How it does south in a milder winter is different.

Oats would be my choice- I actually have it a cover crop right now. That and buckwheat . both will winter kill in NY- well usually.

Peas will do great things for nitrogen increasing.

bugs..... start looking into companion planting, natural repellants to grow near the plants and natural predators to attract to eat the buggers.
Cattle can eat the stuff down but they will also compact it and add fresh manure that when it decomposes might be robbing the soil of nitrogen in the process- try to avoid the fresh poo... and compaction.
Till the cover crops in or cut them down.
weeds....... mulch mulch mulch. You can use plastic between the rows. Or get the plastic mulch and cut holes for the plants- Johnny's seeds has it all.
Cardboard is excellent for a mulch between rows and plants. Often found free at stores- but not sure if it would increase slugs so have to be watchful on that.
I was at a conference where they were talking cover crops and they had winter rye in and mowed it down- actually I think they had a roller/crimper, anyways it laid it down and they planted plants through that new layer of mulch.
I'm getting some winter rye today and going to try it since I already have the oats and buckwheat in........ might just experiment on a small spot and see what problems I find...... on the small scale. It's about the only cover crop I can put in so late here.

[40shadesofgreen]

I think everything has been said But as I love this subject I'll contribute too!
LOTS of compost /well rotted dung makes the kind of soil you just want to go out and get your hands in. It also makes soil with stones in it so much easier to hoe and hand weed. Veg. love it too and compete better with the weeds. I find as the years go by the soil is easier to work and looks and feels so good.
Weeds are really interesting and can tell a lot about the kind of ground you have. They are natures own perfect balancing act as "nature abhors a vacuum" and bare soil will grow weeds (as we call them) unless we intervene. I love that weeds with deep tap roots bring up trace minerals from deep down and deposit them on the surface when their leaves die and that some weeds help retain fertility. For me just changing how I felt about weeds did help. They are not my enemy, They are natures friends........ I'll TRY and stop rambling!
Perennial weeds are much harder to deal with though. They can come up through mulch and up through the crop after it is established.They are best dealt with before planting crops. Perennial weeds make a veg. garden very hard work or near impossible depending how bad they are.
Bugs? Companion planting and crop rotation can help a lot , but nothing beats regular hand checking to prevent things getting out of hand.
One thought I have is that a smaller area with lots of compost and kept weed/bug free will be more productive than a larger less well cared for plot. If you have found your area too much to manage in the past and don't have more time this coming year than usual, then leaving a few strips for Calendulas,/ clover /poppies.....whatever, a mixed cover crop, that would bring in beneficial insects and give you more time for the remaining ground. Good Luck!

[Stacy]

So plant something like the flower mix you mentioned in between every row or two possibly? Hmm.. interesting idea!
I did plan to go smaller, and closer together this coming season.
The weeds are out of control. They are ridiculous. More so than ever before!! I would go out and only get one entire row of beans weeded in a couple of hours and then do the next row the next night. By the end of the week, my first row looked as though it'd never been touched, and I didn't actually have an entire weeks' worth of nights to go out and hand row every row. Most evenings, I was busy, so was lucky to get one or two rows done. The cows LOVED every single thing I pulled. I made sure DH would come and get the weeds for them. At least someone got a crop from the garden this year!

[40shadesofgreen]

Here are more ideas!
Is your area all equally good? Is it on a slope or is any part more shady,sheltered or windy than another part? is one part nearer a path you pass along regularly? If its all the same then leaving a wide margin round the edge or strips for a mixed cover crop might work well. If one corner is better than the rest then I would plant up the best spot with my crops and whats left with a cover crop ......
For a suitable summer cover crop best ask people in your area what they grow, or see what seed you can find.

I agree with this.......
by debbielincoln on Oct 5, 2012,

NOTHING gets "rid" of weeds, other than hoeing or (as you are planning) covering them up with straw. We use grass clippings from our huge yard. I spread newspapers a couple layers thick between the rows, lay the grass on top, and water it.

Were your weeds annual weeds?
Hoeing should be fairly quick..... and satisfying, It's best done when weeds are still small. I like to leave the weeds I've hoed on the surface of the soil or around the beds for the worms to eat. ( saves on work carting them off )
What crops are you planning to grow?...... Some plants compete better with weeds........ This is an endless subject with so many variables..... I could ramble on and on............ Enjoy your planning!

[Julie in NY]

Hi. Great thread, here. Thanks for starting it.

I just want to say yes to the cover crop and yes to the grazing. I read in some organic farming book (sorry, I've been reading a LOT lately, don't remember what book) that grazing the cover crop is more beneficial than mowing it. Presumably because you're putting it through the cow so it's closer to compost
I also wanted to suggest that you look into the issue of BRIX and get your soil tested by International Ag Labs. Low Brix plants will attract bugs, whereas high Brix plants will be virtually immune to them. It has to do with the balance of minerals in your soil. High Brix plants are also super healthful and filling, so it pays dividends to you and your family down the line. The test is not that expensive, and will give you recommendations about what minerals to apply.

Good Luck! Don't give up!
Julie

[Stacy]

I don't hoe the weeds, I pull them. I feed them to the cows. Our weeds are good, southern weeds. IN other words, TONS of them and they grow fast and tall and with spikes most of the time. There's a LOT of stinging nettles in the weeds. The cattle LOVE to eat those. There's some other weed that you can only pull down at the very base where it comes out of the soil without getting spikes in your fingers. It grows some sort of "fruit" on it that looks like a tomatillo sort of thing. It's pretty abundant too. We also have plantains, but those are not so much in the garden as just "everywhere". There's something else too that sort of looks like a spiked fern and flowers right in the fall. It's all over the pasture and if it gets long, it's awful to pull out. The cows won't eat it, but the goats we used to have kept them down great!

I personally think my husband over-tills the garden every year. He just flat out refuses to listen to me. Now, neither of us knows any better than the other however, which is probably why he won't listen.

My theory is simple. Plant more, closer together to "drown out" the weeds possible growing space. Cover the area in straw (I proved that worked last year in a small area!!! Yay me!) and then plant in rows that made after only being tilled a few times. I want one hard till in the fall to get the top weeds pulled up by the roots and exposed, then a hard till in the spring to reexpose bugs and their eggs/larve and young weed roots again, then one fine till a few weeks later to make my rows. That's it. He wants to till and till and till and till and till...... He got a tractor, NOW it's a toy.

I also want to make the garden smaller, with those rows closer together than what we've been doing, it should still provide me more than what our lousy gardens have been the last few years!

[40shadesofgreen]

They sound like mostly perennial weeds.......with continuous cultivation or mulching most perennials get less and less vigorous over the years. It really does get easier.
Reading your post again your plan sounds clear, focused and good to me...... till less, mulch more, plant more densely, concentrate your energies on a smaller area ...... Actually I reckon determination is half the battle and sounds like you got that.
Are you going to put in a winter cover crop?

[Stacy]

My husband is fighting me on it, so I don't know if we'll get one in "this year". I really wanted to give it a good try though. In my mind, doing things differently is the only way to get things in the garden to react differently. The worse we got (in my way of thinking) the worse the weeds and bugs got!

Thanks for the vote of confidence 40! (Kim?)

[Stacy]

BTW, I want to go to Ireland so very desperately and it might be what finally makes me lose this weight! I've ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wanted to see Ireland first hand, along with Germany!!!! So any time you want to post pictures, PLEASE DO!!!!!!!!!!!

[kristi]

Just a suggestion here on your garden spot. Try getting newspaper and putting down at least 3 layers. If you can leave it a full year just add wood chips (not shavings or bark) on top and let it break down. About 6-8". When you go to use it add compost/manure to the top - as it rains you'll have compost tea. Dig through it and plant down, pulling the chips back up to the stem. If you need it by next spring put down the paper, add about 1.5" compost, then 4" of wood chips. Manure all over the top and plant this spring. You will never have to till, ever. Everything breaks down. Just keep adding the chips and manure to the top. Worms will come too. And what little grass grows up is easy to pull with this method.

I know - it sounds weird. But try a 6'x6' and experiment. I think you both will be pleasantly surprised.

[Stacy]

What kind of chips? I'm willing to try lots of stuff and loveeee the suggestions!

[silverzuk]

In response to getting rid of weeds. The main thing is not to let them go to seed. At the end of each plant cycle, turn the crop under and plant an new one.
In August, I bush hog my corn and disk it under. I then plant kale, turnips, winter wheat, and oats for a cover crop.

The pumpkin patch is will always be a struggle to weed the following year. The reason is my pumpkins don't come in until late Sept. early Oct. That means all the weeds that I didn't get, are going to seed and come bakc with vengance next year. The corn and bean patches have very few weeds in them because I chop up the crop, turn it under, and plant a new crop before the weeds go to seed.

Nothing stops weeds, but you will be fighting them tooth and nail if you let weeds go to seed in the garden.

[40shadesofgreen]

Yes I would like to post pictures and plan to figure out how. I'm am a reluctant with technology person

Kristis' suggestion of just mulching, instead of tilling at all, is very good. (Kristi, I don't know what the difference is between wood chip and wood shavings? and what is the reason to not use shavings?
You need a supply of wood chip (check the wood wasn't treated first if you get it from a saw mill) but its surprising what some people consider waste! I'm sure there are more ideas of what kinds of mulch work well. It may come down to whats available to you.
I have found mulching brilliant for fruit trees and bushes but in the veg. patch I found bindweed and couch grass thrive under it and we have such a damp climate that slugs and snails proliferate and then eat everything that peeps its head up! When I do use mulch I use cardboard underneath. Our weeds get through newspaper too quickly, I think that's because I tend to use mulch on new areas where the weeds are strong (perennials) and because our climate is so damp the paper rots too quickly.

I find cover crops work well for us. I start some plants off in modules in the poly tunnel (we get late frosts). Then a few weeks before they're ready to go in the ground I hoe down my cover crop and leave it lying on the surface of the soil like a blanket. in less than 2 weeks there is only a skeleton of stalks left (all the green has been eaten by worms and slugs,) I collect up the slugs that gather under it & remove the stalks. Then when I'm ready to plant out, the soil is ready. The potato beds get compost too. This is what I have found to work for us here. There are LOTS of ways to grow depending on soil/climate.... trial and error is often the best teacher.

As you have a big area to work with and you're not planning on using all of it, perhaps you could try different ideas on different strips, including your husband in the trial planning process, and together find a method that works for your land. While your view points might be different You do both want the same thing. It seems that he hasn't shared your realization to try something different and as if he has clear ideas too

[Stacy]

FarmKings is on and THEY mulch EVERYTHING. YAY! He saw it and I remembered to bring up this thread to him. SWEET! He's totally thinking I was RIGHT about it. YES. I LOVE it when a good plan works out! So we'll find these wood chips (WHAT KIND???) and we'll rework our garden plan...thank goodness. This CAN work!!!

[Stacy]

I'm totally excited. I'll skip the cover crop for this year and work on fixing the garden NOW so it's ready by spring.

[kristi]

Sorry Stacy - I only just got back on line. I was made to understand any chips that you can get in your area will work. The video said why use chips and not shavings but I can't remember why - something to do with the packing down I "think". Also, I personally was thinking of using old feed sacks so long as they didn't have plastic in them. The thicker paper would be great if the weeds are bad - it'll still rot over time but would give you a better chance at killing those weeds.

Marjorie Wildcraft and "someone else who's name I can't remember right now" use this method and from what I've seen of their video's it works great. No more tilling. Allows you to grow or build soil yourself. My entire back yard is going to be like this eventually. Fenced and able to walk out the back door to work it. The closer it is the more likely I'll work it like I'm supposed to. Too far away from the house it's easy to let things go. Good luck with whatever method you try.