M-2 New heifer is badly bullying

[Deleted]

???Hi, all! I've been lurking on this forum for a while, looking forward to the day when I was able to get a cow. Well, that day arrived this week! And I'm already over my head and hoped for some advice.

On Monday I took delivery of an 8 month old Brown Swiss heifer. Her name is Tinkerbell and she is gorgeous and very, very tame and friendly. Being in a new home, and an only cow, she has been very needy with my husband and I, rubbing and licking non-stop, even ignoring food I put down if I am near, preferring instead get petted. And when I go into her free stall, she tries to block me from leaving. But she is a real lady on a rope halter and likes to go for led walks in the pasture. In short, she's terrific.

I decided to get one more cow because I felt bad that Tink was in the cold barn alone at night and there's only so much time I can spend with her. I also didn't want to wait til Mar 2012 for milk or a baby calf. I found an Amish farmer selling registered Jerseys so I went to his farm and picked out a heifer who is due in May. She was among a lot of heifers (maybe 25) in a big dirt field with a run-in shed. At the farm she seemed inquisitive (she was the first to approach me) but calm and shy (she wouldn't let me touch her, nor would any of the lot she was with).

Anyway, so today True, the new heifer, was delivered. I put her in the free stall with Tinkerbell. Unfortunately, we've had a very ugly start. At first, True went right to the food trough. Tink was so excited and curious, she kind of pestered True and several times tried to mount her. True ran her off with no real concern. But when I went back to check on them maybe an hour later things were bad. True was bullying Tink very harshly -- would not let her get near the food trough, water, or front gate where I was. If Tink tried to get near any of these things, True would run her into the back corner, onto the floor, and butt her while she was down quite violently and repeatedly. Tink was completely cowed and yet True wouldn't let up.

I was shocked and worried about Tinkerbell's safety. So I ended up opening the gate to let True into the pasture, then put Tink on a lead and into another room of the barn where I put down some straw and a bucket of food and water for her as a makeshift stall. I then reopened the pasture gate and True strolled back into the free stall without any issues and started eating again.

So now I have two heifers in different parts of the barn. My question is -- is it normal for two strange heifers to fight so aggressively? Will I have to keep them separate for a long time? Any recommendations?

One other issue is that True, the new heifer, is really not tame. She won't let me touch her and has probably never been on a rope halter. These girls will be my only cows (until calves arrived) and I'd like to keep both of them like pets, very used to handling and attention. True will be 2 in May. Is she too old to learn to accept human interaction? If not, how best to tame her? I read on another site that the best way to get a heifer to accept you as their friend is to deprive them of any other companionship. Would it be best for me to keep 'the girls' separate and work on getting True to accept my company and handling before reintroducing them? Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

By the way, True is a little bigger than Tink but not that much b/c Tink, as a Brown Swiss, will be much larger in the end. But Tink was kept alone in a stall inside so she definitely is not as 'worldly' as True and doesn't have the herd experience.

[Deleted]

Here's a pic of Tinkerbell....

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[Jerseylady*Heather*]

Wow, sounds like a lot to take on at one time. Ok I would start with the older heifer. She needs to stay in a small pen until you can get her used to you. Get a halter on her and tie her up. Leave food and water within reach. Do this for a couple hours every day. Always when you let her off try to lead her a little. Entice her to come to you with grain or treats. While she is tied if she will let you, you can brush her or pet her or scratch under the halter they always like that. Do not expect results over night it is going to take you a month or better to convince her you are not going to hurt her. We have a cow now that was wild when we picked her up, tried to run through me at the dairy. She now leads like a dream and runs to me for treats. She is still sensitive with her head. But she milks well and does everything I ask. It is a long process taming a cow but one that is totally rewarding. That said be careful, cows that are scared kinda loose their brains. Now is a good time to start teaching her before she calves.
As far as with your other heifer. Put them in pens next to each other where they can sniff each other through the fence, or where they share a fence line. After a month or so they should be old buddies by then. Dont put them together right off the bat. That can be bad; as you have already experienced.
Dont get discouraged and if she shakes her head or throws her head at you dont be scared to bop her in the nose that always sets them straight and tells them whos the boss.
Good Luck I am sure others will chime in with other thoughts this is just how I would handle this cow.
Heather

[Leimana]

What Heather said ;D I bought a wild heifer once and kept her on the end of an 18ft rope. I brought her water and food when i wanted. he tamed up within a month. Not a pet, but I could walk her and scratch her and such. Nothing like Brown swiss girls for sweet loving! Tink will probably always be your best friend and prefer lovin over most anything. Good job picking that one!!! Does your jersey have horns? I would suggest getting rid of them if she does. Just IMO though Good luck with your girls, that was a lot of cow to get at once, but you will be just fine. Sounds like you have some setup already so you are ahead in the game some! Welcome to the board by the way!

[Janene]

Its a domination thing, True was letting Tinkerbelle know "I'm boss". Bad thing was, Tink had no where to escape the onslaught.
I'd keep them separated unless they're out on pasture, where Tink has room to get away from True.

BUT, I'd take Heather's advice and keep True in a smaller area and work with her--lots. And she's right, it will take time and you'll notice things that one heifer could care less about and the other totally has a fit about it.
Time is on your side, the more you work with her now, the easier it will be (on both of you) when calving time comes.
Welcome and congratulations!
Janene

[Deleted]

Thanks, everyone! I was surprised this morning by the fast replies.

I will take your advice and keep True and Tink in separate areas for the time being, and keep True in her stall and not allow her the pasture until she is used to me and the rope harness.

This morning, I did see a little progress. In the barn there's a central aisle where I can put feed into the trough in True's stall. She was hungry and I took the opportunity to reach thruogh and pet her a little. At first she would just back away but after a while, she let me touch her a bit while she ate. Later, when I went to the gate, she came up and let me pet her. She seemed to want to 'scratch' herself against my hand in a particular spot. Since I couldn't even touch her yesterday, I count this as progress! However, since she's in a pretty big free stall (I don't have a smaller pen avaliable), I wasn't able to get a rope halter on her. I tried; she ran away and after awhile I let it be. I think the more she lets me touch her I can work up to getting the halter on her, hopefully in the next day or so.

One other thing, she can see through to Tink's stall and I made sure to spend a long time petting Tink this morning with True watching. I will also take Tink to the pasture today on the rope harness so that True can observe that. She's already been very vocal about wanting to be on that pasture, so maybe seeing Tink get there on the harness will make her more ammenable to it.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Jenn]

Yup, the jerseys were the "bullies" at my place too.<L>
Sounds like your on the right track.<G>
-Jenn

[wyomama]

Sounds like you are making good progress.

Keeping them where they can see each other, but not hurt each other for a while will help.

The problem is that Tink has no idea about how to be a cow. She needs to learn the language. It is very likely that at the farm, True was low on the totem pole. Those are the cows that in a new environment will fight like the dickens to increase their status. So, with the stress of the move and being in a strange place, she was a lot more aggressive than she probably would be normally, because she was afraid and felt threatened.

They will work out who is "boss" between them. As you've seen, it's best if that happens in an area large enough for Tink to get away, with no tight corners to get trapped in, and when the excitement and stress of the newness has worn off.

It is very important though, that you maintain discipline. They need to each know that *you* are boss, above all. If you don't, you will find yourself in the position of wanting to do something with Tink, and True punishing her for getting out of line and getting your attention first. You'll end up being run over or knocked down in the scuffle. You can't just be the nice human that brings them treats and loves on them. You have to be the unquestioned queen of the universe that must be respected and obeyed ...and brings them treats and loves on them when they behave properly.

[suzorse]

I will add one thing ( YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR COW TO RUB ON YOU EVER) you rub the cow they do not rub you, a cow has a large head and if they walk up behind you and rub their head on you, you can get hurt real bad, Tink is smaller now but my swisses have very large heads, and I do not ever let any of them
rub on me ,or get in the habit, some of my calves have been bad about it so they get popped on the nose
till they get the message, and then they will stand next to me for their love. I have haltered cows using a bucket of grain lay the noseband in the bucket so they have to put their nose threw then while they are eating, pull it up and fasten it fairly easy to do , I have a cow that bullys at times , she has knocked a steel panel fence down twice using Rosie as a battering ram and knocked her into a 100 rubbermade water trough, she has not done that to her in a long time, but she did knock April into the panels and down
a month ago, I do try to have lots of space at the feeders or between hay piles if I am feeding in the field
water troughs are put where no one can monapalize (sp?) it. and try to keep it away from where you feed
Hope this helps Suzanne

[Deleted]

Great comments. I did manage to get the rope halter on True today, so now she is wearing it around. I'll just leave it on her awhile, rope dangling. She steps on it often, but so far that hasn't seemed to harm anything. Tomorrow I'll try tying her up for a bit.

Yes, I do need to keep Tink from any head or horn rubbing on me. Not a good thing even at her current size. I've had to swat her behind a few times -- I'll try the nose instead.

Thanks for your help!

[Shawn]

Remember, you'll get hurt worse with a scared cow than a bossy one. The bossy one will not be afraid to stand her ground, but a scared one will run right over the top of you out of pure fear. So if she's timid, she'll be more scared. Just don't let yourself get in a spot where she can crunch you inadvertently trying to get away.
As far as the leading, I'd tie her to a post several times a day for long stretches, so she learns not to fight the rope before you try leading her. If she learns she can run off on you, she'll never forget.
No, she's not too old to learn anything you'd like to teach her, except maybe counting. My dairy girl was 6 when I got her. She wouldn't let me closer than about 30 feet at the dairy. It took a few days before she wouldn't back out of the stanchion as I passed back and forth behind her. (I wasn't milking her at the time.) Then it took another day or so before I could walk up and latch the head catch. But it took a year and a half before she would let me scratch her head without shaking it at me. I knew enough about cow behavior to know she wasn't shaking her head at me to dominate me, it was basically a bluff, "I'm afraid of you touching my head, so I'll act mean and shake my head." She finally realized a good poll scratch was kinda nice, but she's still not overly fond of it. I think dairy born cows are more touchy about their heads, because they're not handled in that way. She will not let me put her halter on unless she's caught in the stanchion. And her leading is, well, stubborn. I don't need to lead her much, so I confess, I haven't pushed the issue. But she will lead if I have to make her.

[Deleted]

STATUS UPDATE:

Well, True has come a long way in a short while. She is comfortable with me petting and brushing her aleady. I don't have to put a rope halter on her to do it. I haven't been able to KEEP a halter on her because she inevitably manages to get it around her throat and I worry that stepping on it might choke her. But I have been able to get her into it when I need to.

The trick I thought I would try, since they are creatures of habit, was to make going to the pasture dependent on 'let me put on the halter and lead you out there, then I'll take it off and you can play'. That worked the past two days at least, though she does fight the rope. I guess I might want to have her spend more time with her tied up in it.

The other good bit is that today I put Tinkerbell in the pasture with True for the first time since I separated them. They are getting along just fine. In fact, they were running around together -- very cute. I think the period of seperation helped a lot -- both of them were lonely.

On the bad news side, I was walking out in the pasture today to go check on a ground hole and my English bulldog Lucy tagged along. True saw us from across the pasture and came trotting over. She ignored me when she saw Lucy and went after her. She head butted Lucy in the rear, huffing. I had to get between them and shout 'no!' at True and push her away as hard as I could. It was a very tense five minutes walking back to the barn, trying to keep a cowed and slinking Lucy on one side of me and an intent True on the other. She followed us the whole way, trying to get around me to Lucy, and I had to push her back several time. Honestly, it was scary. And it was unprovoked. Lucy never even barked at her.

I'm perplexed at the moment. True has come around so far in such a short time, and she is good with me. But I'm not excited about having an aggressive animal around (first Tink, now Lucy) or being unable to walk with my own dogs in the pasture if the heifers are out. We plan to add a miniature donkey at some point and probably other animals. Is this pattern with True likely to continue, where she is violent with other animals? If so, I might be better off to sell her back to the Amish farmer where I got her and get sweet Tink a donkey for company! Any thoughts appreciated.

[Jenn]

It is totally normal for a cow to not want a strange dog in her pasture. I would think very carefully about allowing your dog in the pasture. A dog can kill a calf. I admit, I have goats so I am extra sensitive. No one thinks THEIR dog would hurt a fly...and maybe they wouldn't on their own...but get a group of dogs together and the behavior changes.

I realize this is sounding kind of harsh...I am trying to convey the seriousness of a worse case scenerio.

BUT there always the possibility True could come to like your dog and vice versa and it could be a total non issue with a proper introduction.

-Jenn

[Deleted]

Hi, Jenn. Thanks for the reply. I notice on your list of critters you have an english shepherd. Do you keep your dog out of the pasture? If so, is that something you do with fencing? We have an electric horse fence around our pasture -- it works for the cows but the dogs can crawl under the bottom wire and anyway they are usually with me. Just wondering if I am expecting too much. I don't have any fear of Lucy when it comes to HER being aggressive. Both my English bulldogs are total couch potatoes and waddling is the most ambition they can muster. But it is a consideration to keep in mind.

[Becky]

It just sounds like True isn't much of a push over. Her behavior is pretty normal, as far as I can see. Canines are carnivores, which in cow-ease is "danger". Both of my adult cows will take a dog in a hot second. I don't discourage it. It is natural and they (True) are just protecting themselves. Please take this softly, as I am not trying to be ornery, but the first violent interaction between True and Tink was basically a whoops. One should never place two strange animals together in a small confined area as one of them, in this case, Tink, will not be able to get away from the other. Out in the pasture Tink could have gotten away and the pecking order would have been established with a little less trauma. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't feel like I am beating up on you. Just a little info to stash in your tool box. Really, it sounds like True is coming along quite nicely for you. From what you are saying, she's just being a cow. I wouldn't be too tough on her
Another little bit that might help you, don't pet/scratch/rub your girls on the face. Stick to the poll and neck area, under the chin. ears type of thing.
Keep up the good work!! Sounds like you are gaining great strides!!!

Becky

[Jerseylady*Heather*]

Every cow we have ever had has been dog aggressive, its a natural instinct. This includes our beef cows. Foxes and Wolves in the wild are their natural predetors. That said my dogs (Golden Retrievers) follow me every where and when first introduced to the milk cows they usually get chased. But It takes them about a week to get used to my dogs. After that they consider them as part of the pack. They are still aggressive towards strange dogs, but my dogs are ok in their book. I usually just let the cow get to know the dog through the fence. Some cows hate dogs and it can be very dangerous for the dog and for you if you get between the dog and the cow. My dogs run around the pasture and within no time the cows get used to them. I guess what I am saying is cows can get used to dogs but be careful! If you cow ever does any thing like that with you and the dog smack her in the nose tell her no. If she still doesnt stop I would kick her in the nose tell her no. Eventually they learn NO means stop. I never want to have my cow act aggressive around me. Its about personal safety.
On a side note True sounds like she is going to make a really sweet milk cow. She has tamed up really quickly which means she will be your best buddy in no time. Good job with her.

[Jenn]

Nov 16, 2010 15:25:02 GMT -5 @jensenholmes said:

Hi, Jenn. Thanks for the reply. I notice on your list of critters you have an english shepherd. Do you keep your dog out of the pasture? If so, is that something you do with fencing? We have an electric horse fence around our pasture -- it works for the cows but the dogs can crawl under the bottom wire and anyway they are usually with me. Just wondering if I am expecting too much. I don't have any fear of Lucy when it comes to HER being aggressive. Both my English bulldogs are total couch potatoes and waddling is the most ambition they can muster. But it is a consideration to keep in mind.

Abby is our house dog, her job is to protect that which is MOST important to me. We got her when there was a white van grabbing kids in the area. She is not allowed in the pasture with the animals. I originally got her as dual purpose, but that went out the window when I realized she could not be 2 places at once and the critter eating the chickens was a lot bigger than she was...a Bobcat. We got into LGDs after that. Buddy, the doxie, is allowed in the pasture...mostly because he's so small we can't fence him out practically.
He gets rolled or smashed on a fairly regular basis.

-Jenn

[missevelyn]

I wouldn't teach True to be non aggressive with dogs. She's going to need that instinct to protect herself from the inevitable stray dog/coyote. The dogs need to stay out of her pasture, won't hurt them any. Our blue heeler knows to not bother the stock. She mostly stays out of the corrals away from the steers and heifers. I see her slip into the heifer corral to watch my darling on his way to the horses, but it IS sneaking and not upsetting the heifers.

Regina

[Deleted]

Hi, Becky -- no you are right, it was a whoops putting them together right off the bat. I had it in my mind that True was used to being with lots of other cows but I was wrong. This is all new to me -- I have read some books on the cow care but mostly they are about the structure of housing, calving, feeding, etc, and don't give a lot of the nitty gritty detail. I'm learning a lot! Hopefully, I won't make any mistakes that will end up hurting anyone. I know I should count my blessings at this point that True is accepting my petting and that she and Tink are now pasture buds.

When I brought them in tonight, I managed to get Tink back to her own separate area of the barn. Neither heifer was happy about being separated, but I want to avoid putting them back in a closed space together at feeding time where True might try to run Tink off her share of the chow.

Thank you all, too, for reassuring me that the True/Lucy encounter was normal.

I remember when we got our second bulldog puppy, it took quite some time for the two 'girls' to become friends. It was probably a few weeks of very managed encounters. So I know I need to be patient. Hopefully at some point we will all adjust and it will all be routine and normal.

[Deleted]

Nov 16, 2010 15:59:00 GMT -5 Jerseylady*Heather* said:

Every cow we have ever had has been dog aggressive, its a natural instinct. This includes our beef cows. Foxes and Wolves in the wild are their natural predetors. That said my dogs (Golden Retrievers) follow me every where and when first introduced to the milk cows they usually get chased. But It takes them about a week to get used to my dogs. After that they consider them as part of the pack. They are still aggressive towards strange dogs, but my dogs are ok in their book. I usually just let the cow get to know the dog through the fence. Some cows hate dogs and it can be very dangerous for the dog and for you if you get between the dog and the cow. My dogs run around the pasture and within no time the cows get used to them. I guess what I am saying is cows can get used to dogs but be careful! If you cow ever does any thing like that with you and the dog smack her in the nose tell her no. If she still doesnt stop I would kick her in the nose tell her no. Eventually they learn NO means stop. I never want to have my cow act aggressive around me. Its about personal safety.
On a side note True sounds like she is going to make a really sweet milk cow. She has tamed up really quickly which means she will be your best buddy in no time. Good job with her.

Hi, Heather -- this is really helpful, thank you. Yes, it *is* scary when they act aggressive and you are in between them and the object of their anger. They are big animals. I really was scared today, and I don't like being scared in my own 'home'. Even though True has allowed me close to her, it is a new releationship so I don't entirely trust it. Over time, that will improve. I thought that I should carry a stick or something with me so that I can make more of an impression if I ever get into a situation like that again.

Your scenario, where your cows get used to YOUR dogs, sounds ideal. Your goldens, though, are probably faster on their feet than my bullies. I don't think they could out run a cow. I think I will follow the advice of another poster and keep them out of the pasture. Maybe try to some managed encounters at the fence.

thanks again!