Tall grass, mob stocking

[simplynaturalfarm]

Thank you for posting the link bluetigers. I like to read articles. I think Joel has valid experience and the proof is in his fat and sassy cows - but I wish people like him would simply be a bit more honest or not so . . . rude LOL. I came across as rude in my post also, but I get tired of his rudeness = to me it is a turn off.
Maybe he is not saying what he is trying to. BUT I am not too proud to tell people, 'It works. I don't know why it works, and IN FACT, science and forage analysis says it should not work, but it is working for me!"
I am doing more research on Greg Judy and have a friend who just lent me his book. He has some good clips on you tube and again his animals are working well in the system so it is working!
I do wonder how applicable some of it is in our arid and brittle environment - Allan Savoury says that the system we are trying for is the slower version of a rainforest - tons of bacteria, breaking down, fungi and very quick turnover of litter. Greg Judy shows one pasture after a 120 day rest - tall and very healthy, the soil at the base is 100% wormcastings that weren't there 120 days before. I have a hard time making compost some years because of our cold temperatures here. We will sometimes get a frost every month of the summer, and most temps stay below 55 all summer long (we chart it for heartworm purposes lOL). There is not the same breakdown of trash and litter as they are having in Virginia and where Greg Judy is from - we can't even grow 90 day anything let alone 120 day. I think we could experience benefits, but I do not think they would be as drastic as Greg Judy sees in his environment. I really really wish I could try - they are mob grazing in Bismarck with very good results with a herd of 700 cows. What is your experience? I'm looking at 3-5 cows right now and can't apply the pressure I would love to for mob grazing. Maybe I can talk a neighbor into letting me mob graze HIS area with HIS herd of 40 - Salatin says it is not even worth trying for less than 100 - is he wrong??
I really really think I need to let my forages grow longer. I have enough hay to do so (leave it in the spring), and you have inspired me to think outside my MIG grazing techniques
Thank you again for posting and please do not stop!! ARe there any specific articles from Greg you would suggest I read?
Heather

[simplynaturalfarm]

I am finding some very interesting links that I'm sure all of you are up on already - I stopped subscriptions to many things 3 years ago when we started paying off student loans I am behind on the newer fencing systems and thus going "WOW" on the tumbleweed system from Gallagher - the amount of time I spend setting up some times is astounding and I watched the one guy move his herd in about 1 minute, moving the fence forward 75 feet . . .
THis one is showing the positive results of that mob grazing even on grass heading out - these cows are insanely fat on pasture alone!

This is the picture of the "tumbleweed" in action (the fence mover!) I'm gonna have to find out how much they cost because I have flat land with no trees that could utilize a system like this! Update - the tumblewheel costs $300 per . . . I think I will be inventing something LOL Or maybe get my girls to come help :)_

His other camera posts are quite interesting to watch also.
Here is a dairy herd being mob grazed - I wonder how he milks?

[bluetigers]

Here is Greg Judy's website. He didn't have any of The Stockman Grass Farmer artcles on his site, but he does have some artcles on there. www.greenpasturesfarm.net/index.php
Unfortunately, I can't find the Stockman grass farmer artcles on the web, we subscribed so we get them in the mail, so here I am having to type the whole thing on the computer to post it. So it could take some time to put on more.
Good thing, I don't mind typeing!

No, I haven't done mob grazing yet. but look forward to trying it with our little herd, it is going to be interesting, have to figure out if we can graze them all together.
Well, the Holistic Land Management 6 day course will be starting on Monday, really excited!

[simplynaturalfarm]

I am getting really interested in this whole thing (THANK you for bringing it up!), and envious of your course . I am sorry if you felt pressured to type up an article - I am sure you have lots on your plate and I feel badly that you are doing so. I would enjoy anything you can send links for and whatever titles of articles you enjoyed I could look up online or purchase old copies probably.
I had a mob grazier tell me that the reason they graze at the point they do, is they are trying to find the best balance of energy, height, residue of litter, regrowth AND performance. In order to get the best residue and regrowth, they may end up sacrificing some energy or performance, or for an animal with high requirements, they may sacrifice some of the litter in order to graze lower etc. This means that they may not get the most energy or best performance but if they want more litter, they graze it taller and gave more biomass. But that in a dry, cold or brittle environment, you may not be able to graze the tallest stuff others are grazing because that amount of litter may take too long to break down in order to regrow - does this sound like anything you have heard? And we don't want to have so much litter that we can't graze it for a full year! (we have such a short season that we do not see the decomposition of things like others do) That made a lot more sense to me and he happens to be grazing dairy cows with mob style. He said different grasses and legumes are grazed at different heights in his specific situation and he can adjust his grazing to the cow's performance in the milking barn.
Heather

[throwback]

The most important thing to do is to not violate the law of the second bite - by making sure you keep a back fence. Paddock configuration is important too, if you want trampling for good litter on top of the soil, rectangular paddocks work best, keeping the cows a tad unsettled trampling more than they eat. With good litter and all the manure and urine placed evenly in the paddocks it is similar to covering the soil with good, composty manure with the added benefit of hoof action. It turns pasture around very fast, compared to other more fuel and labor intensive methods.

Heather, a 45 day rest period would work for your 90 day season giving you two grazings per season. It may not work, but its worth a try. The hardest thing about rotational grazing is when you have a set stocking rate and don't get rid of animals if you're overstocked. I am butchering my meat animals, just as our growing season slows, thus getting rid of a # of full sized animals at a critical time. In my location (non-brittle), we get rain for 9 months of the year, and no rain for 3 months in the hottest part of year - making managing our pastures for this every year drought a must.

Steve Kenyon in Alberta writes occasionally for SGF and he grazes year-round in a climate similar to yours.
greenerpasturesranching.com/landmanagement.html

Lots of info out there, some applies, and some doesn't, but its all definitely food for thought.

[Selden]

Heather, your descriptions of your soil and issues sounds much like mine... except that I have very little topsoil, very little organic matter to start with -- mostly boulders, sand, and gravel. (Oh well -- it drains quickly! ) But the issue of things not breaking down is huge for me. The very short season (64 frost-free days if we're lucky) and the lack of microbes in the soil means that I can have sheep berries overwinter on my pasture that don't break down! Slowly my soil is improving but it is a constant fight and I know it will never be great.

Thanks to all for sharing these links. I can't wait to read them.

[bluetigers]

simplynaturalfarm
I found 2 Certified Educators with Holistic Management in ND.
Hope that helps!
For anyone else, the link on the bottom has a list of Certified Educators across US and the world.

North Dakota
Wayne Berry
1611 11th Ave. West
Williston, ND 58801
701/572-9183
[e-mail]

Joshua Dukart
2539 Clover Place
Bismarck, ND 58503
701/870-1184
[e-mail]

www.holisticmanagement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=18#north dakota

[Jenn]

Here's one I like:
naturesharmony.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pasturerotationalgrazing&action=display&thread=428

Greg Judy is MO based. We are second only to Texas as a cattle state for good reason. Grass grows well here. We can have year round grazing if managed properly. We can have new growth during a warm spell in December...then lose it to the following freeze a week later.

Rest period is crucial. Grass does NOT grow evenly. It might grow back in 2 weeks in the spring, but take 75 days in a dry summer...that means you do NOT let the cows back into the original paddock for 76 days.

There a guy in the Dakotas that uses standing hay...he uses the warm season grasses in winter and the cool season grasses in summer. He would be a good brain to pick for brittle areas. Pasture has to be managed differently. Here in MO, grass not eaten dries out and becomes incorporated back into the soil in one season...with few exceptions. No petrified forests here.

-Jenn

[simplynaturalfarm]

Throwback - it is good to have reminders of everything. I always have a back fence and am reminded of the one week I was too tired to move the fences behind so I just left them off, and the grass did not recover well or evenly. I always have rectangular pastures, but no reason to, so it is nice to know there is a reason.
I do have the option this year if I can manage with hay and grazing til August 1st of pulling another 5 acres out of CRP for the rest of the grazing season. It will be somewhat tall and rank by August, but it is still grazing and will make good litter .
I am never overstocked . . . *sigh* I cull everything I need to rather aggressively because I refuse to supplement extra and buy in more hay because I have too many animals for the land.
Bluetigers, thank you so much for the links. I recognize one of the names from something .
Selden, I know exactly what you mean about things not breaking down - we can have cow patties in summer never break down. No such thing as deep litter bedding that composts all winter and most compost takes 1-2 years. BUT it does eventually happen *G*.
Jenn, is the fellow you are mentioning Henry something or other? If Ben was here, he would know who I am talking about. He is famous for having the lowest inputs for cows of anybody I know. He doesn't feed hay even in our harshest of winters (believe me, that is very hard but he does not have the hard crust of snow we get from lack of trees and laser levelling land for sugar beets), grazes long stockpiled grass (he doesn't intentionally stockpile) and sells out his heifers in about a day every year. He doesn't have much rhyme or reason though and doesn't rotationally graze, just has lots of land.
Now for questions to the public *G*
What are all of your thoughts on my nasty thistles if I really leave the grass to grow long - lets say 18-24 inches? I am concerned that I will have massive thistles that the cows won't touch for good reason because I do not have a mob. And I will then have to mow with something other than a push mower because it will NOT smash through those suckers! Would incorporating another species of animal in the grazing be beneficial? My experience with sheep was that they ate everything down to nothing in my rotation - would they touch the thistles or just graze around tall thistles and eat the already eaten grass the cows ate (big no no!)? Would goats do it? My husband would die if I got some goat! He loves them - big soft spot for goats in him! He milked and raised them in his youth, lost his entire first herd to Johnes and still is sad about it, but he can't stand the fencing problems, loves them too much to butcher them (this guy butchers everything!), and he can't stand the milk *G*. What in the world would I do with the goats after grazing them LOL. Jenn do you have a few Lamanchas that need a home (my favorite goat of all time LOL)
I have no experience with pigs and thistles - do they eat them?
I really think one beneficial thing will be to have some chickens out there this year - usually they just free range from their coop, but I think they will do better spreading of manure and give me some fly control. And probably add fertility with more manure!
I am also going to try spraying the fields with milk this year as I will be milking 3 cows and have lots of skim.
The hardest thing about this - what do all those mob grazers do at the time they would normally rotationally graze in the spring when they are waiting for the grass to reach 2 feet and go to seed? Usually grass hay is cut last week of June here, which would mean I will have to feed hay for 2 extra months this spring! Do they really wait that long?
Time to order a couple of books (I am scrimping on my food budget this year as I have determined I need to invest in some more books!)
Heather

[Selden]

Heather, how many thistles do you have? I am the Weedwhacking Queen around here (they actually gave me that title after I weedwhacked for the school for a couple of years). I buy plastic blades to attack tougher things (old wild raspberry canes and catbriar). A tank of mixed gas is a gallon, so say $4 to be conservative, and would take care of a lot of thistles, a lot faster and cheaper than a goat.

[simplynaturalfarm]

A lot of thistles, especially in my 3rd pasture where they tore up so much of it while ditching and then DH piled all the straw for the year there for 2 months and didn't understand why I was almost in tears when he drove across 168 times to haul straw back and forth by the bale - the dude does not understand compaction or how driving across it affects it's production!!!
A weed whacker is definitely a possibility. It will take a long time but I can be selective.
Heather

[Jenn]

You want does or bucks or wethers? Somewhere I have a picture of Pearl eating the flower...in FULL bloom too....VERY gingerly of course.<L>

I don't know about sheep. A friend used to do goats, sold out, then got some sheep. She says they eat a LOT differently. They won't touch the poke weed, for instance...BUT they also won't eat her orchard trees if they get out...a GOOD thing.<G>

-Jenn

[throwback]

No Risk Ranching, by Greg Judy is a good one too if you have available land to lease.

Sheep will not eat thistles here, but goats will...but a weed wacker is the easiest to keep

[simplynaturalfarm]

No available land to lease at all. If it not being farmed with potatoes OR sugar beets, it is in long term water something or other (30 year contract with the government) or CRP contracts that pay $40-60 per acre. Nobody will take land out of CRP (You have to pay back every penny of the contract which can be thousands of dollars!) for someone who wants to lease, and I don't know if I could compete at $40 per acre for leasing land. . . It took us 4 years to find somebody who would sell us 15 acres!
If it is not already leased to somebody, it has been promised to somebody who is already leasing thousands. . My Father in law said we could rent his land, but he is getting $92 per acre right now and that is too expensive for us, plus too many miles away.
I do have one option if we are staying - the gentleman we purchased our land from has 10 acres of "extra" land he found while having his land surveyed to be put in that water conservation thing (lovely lovely land he put away for 30 years!). This 10 acres happened to be farmed accidentally by one of the largest land barons in the county who owns the field beside it, and the owner had it surveyed, stakes put in and dug up the crop because the guy farming it said he refused to give it up (how can you refuse to stop farming somebody else's land??) Anyway, he was telling us he didn't know what to do with that land, maybe plant it to corn for a wildlife planting or something. It isn't much land, but only a few hundred feet from us and we could plant it to whatever we want. He hinted that he would like us to rent it if we were interested. I know 10 acres doesn't seem like much (I had 160 on our last farm!), but to me who is eeking out grazing on 3 acres right now, it sounds like tons!
Heather

[bluetigers]

We have Rodger Savory living in SK, about two hours away from us. (Allan Savory's son). A farm we where visiting knows him and said he was running a flerd, I think that it was seven species. I would love to find out how he is doing it.
Here is his website.
savorygrasslandmanagement.com/

simplynaturalfarm
You where asking about goats, we just got our SGF in the mail, their was an article on meat goats. I will try to some it up and just give you the basics.

They are keeping their hundreds of goats in with three strand (low-tensile) electric fences, wires spaced at 10, 20, and 30" off of the ground, all three wires are hot. The charger is never turned off.
The fence must be 5,000 volts or higher. The kids are easier too train then the grown ups.
Parasites? If the forage is less than 3" tall, and you leave them on the same contaminated pasture week after week, then you have problems.
You can prevent internal parasites with grazing management.
Their need shelter from cold rains and bitter wind chill. Simple lean-to or trees, brush are adequate.
The bucks stink when it is breeding season.
The meat goats can birth on the pasture without assistance.
Here is their website.
www.smokeridge.net/

[Selden]

Bluetigers, those recommendations for goats (at least in terms of shelter and parasite management) would not work in my climate. We have cold rains and wind chill in SUMMER and ice the other six months. Trees and brush would just cast shade on their little goat corpses. In my experience, as well, goat parasites cannot be eliminated solely through grazing management.

Heather, good luck with that land!

[throwback]

Yes, good luck with the 10 acres - I wish I could get my hands on more pasture...sadly what was beautiful dairy farms are now either houses or forest...

[bluetigers]

Bluetigers, those recommendations for goats (at least in terms of shelter and parasite management) would not work in my climate. We have cold rains and wind chill in SUMMER and ice the other six months. Trees and brush would just cast shade on their little goat corpses. In my experience, as well, goat parasites cannot be eliminated solely through grazing management.

Selden
I don't have any goats and they weren't my recommendations, it was just some highlights from an article.
The Author lives in Montana, here is her website. www.smokeridge.net/

[Selden]

Yes, I understood that the recommendations weren't from you. I just wanted to warn that they might not pertain usefully everywhere. Montana isn't exactly mild, though. I wonder if the difference is our moisture? We are very, very wet, summer and winter (when it is snow). But our winters are brutal.

[Jenn]

The only thing I would 100% agree with is that YES, BUCKS STINK!<L>
-Jenn