Boar Taint?

[catherine]

I posted our 6 month old meat pigs in the Auction Barn, and ended up spawning a fascinating discussion on Boar Taint. I think that it's a question that we've all wondered about, and I think that everyone's input will be valuable. Therefore I'm copying my last post on that thread here to begin the conversation. I do hope that everyone that has experience with intact boars will contribute their 2 cents. Thanks!


"Hey Guys!

Life has been busy and our PC has been on the fritz. Sorry that this is the first that I've been able to get on line.

About your Boar Taint question, Janene..I'm so very glad you asked. I understand that people are concerned about risking their meat supply, so we are testing our line of RWs for taint ourselves, and have experienced no problems at all, so far.

First off, we read Walter Jeffries' blogs on the topic, and felt that he made a good case for the dangers of castration (possible infection and/or intestinal prolapse, plus slowed growth rate due to stress for the piglet) and distress for the castrator/s. He also made good cases for certain (older, heritage) strains being taint free, as opposed to more modern pigs and/or modern management practices resulting in taint. It kind of reminds me of the A2 question in modern vs. heritage type cattle breeds. He also argues for raising boars on pasture with lots of fiber in their diet to help further reduce any taint possiblities (not having boars penned tightly so they don't live on their own scat). He specifically does NOT separate his boars from their ladies though, and he's butchered hundreds of intact boars up to 30 months of age with no problems whatsoever. You might want to read what he himself has to say in his blog on the topic of Boar Taint....http://flashweb.com/blog/2009/04/tainted-big-pharma.html. It's very, very interesting.

Second, Leslie, I agree with you about strong smelling boars. I know that I can't smell the difference between our boys and girls.

As for our own personal experimentation, we've now butchered out one 6 month old intact boar with the sweetest meat ever. Our first boar to butcher was an 11 month old intact boar with delicious meat. We've recently butchered two more intact boars, at 16 months of age, that are ever so scrumptious. One butcher thought he detected a hint of taint in the hide (which had lain on the ground in urine, etc.) of one of those two big boys, but the ones who were doing the actual cutting (and roasting of a slice) found NO taint in the meat. We've since eaten the rest of the head meat, numerous chops and roasts from both boars and found the meat to be spectacular. We have a few more of those big guys still growing out there in the pasture, and we plan on continuing our experiment, perhaps even up to Walter Jeffries' 30 months of age, to see if we encounter a problem at some point. I figure that if we do actually encounter taint at some point, we have lots of big Great Pyrs. who won't mind the meat one little bit! So, we'll continue to butcher out the remaining big boys we have for our own meat supply, testing our line of RWs for taint.

That said, I think most people are going to want to butcher their pigs out at the more standard 5-6 months/250 lb. range. At that age, our guys aren't really showing much of an interest in girls yet, they are reaching their feed conversion max, still fit in our butcher's scalding tank, and are ever so delicious. At least in our strain of RWs, with our management practices, I have no concerns whatsoever about boar taint at any age under a year, and very, very little concern over that age. The 3 Missouri farms we got our breeder pigs from have always eaten their retiring old boars, so I'd say that's quite a good track record of the eating quality of RWs, at least for this particular strain and this particular breed. However, along with Walter Jeffries, I'm beginning to suspect that most pigs raised on pasture will test out similarly.

I think that the more we share information on our RWs and/or our various breeds and our management practices, the more we'll all know. So I encourage everyone with RWs, or any breed of pigs, to chime in to this discussion...in fact, I think I'll copy this note and make it a special thread over in the Pig Section. Let's keep reporting what we all find, the good, the bad and the tasty, so that all of us can benefit. "


Read more: familycow.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=forsale&thread=37667&page=1#ixzz17NzlAcZN

[Liz]

I look forward to hearing from folks too that have tried it.

From what I can gather online there are two camps--those who do detect it and those who don't.
In the UK the castration of pigs has been "outlawed" (not sure if it is a law or a strong admonishment) due to pig supposed discomfort and preferential humane treatment. These are rules for factory pigs I believe.

I feel that due to the two chemicals that cause boar taint (androstenone and skatole) being released primarily as a breeding/mating/dominance cycle that boar taint could be avoided if the boars to be butchered were not in competition for food or females with any other pigs (especially other males).

I do not have hard facts, am just hypothesizing based on the bull we butchered (no taint after being out of service for several months) and deer/wild hogs we have hunted that were in active rut/mating season that were definitely tainted.

I do look forward to hearing from anyone that has tried it. I am not sure I can risk a whole pig we raise to possibly be able to taste or smell boar taint at the butcher, for us with just one or two pigs at a time that would be devastating to lose a year's supply of pork.

You make a very passionate defense Catherine and I hope as seasons change and breeding cycles are gone through that yours continue to not have any taint.

Just an aside, but how on earth do you manage that many boars
on pasture? Our one pig is always looking for a way out or a way to come see us at the barn! How many pigs do you have now?
Are they all registered RWs or are you cross breeding?
Liz

[audryds]

No taint in our RW meat pigs.

I haven't been on in forever.

I've been meaning to let Catherine know and others who were considering non castrated meat pigs.

We bought two meat piglets from Catherine (hi catherine) and butchered them when they were about 6 months old. No taint! They were in a very large area so that they didn't have live in their scat. The meat was exceptional. They only had each other and only near the end did they even start to mount each other.

We butchered them ourselves. The first one we skinned. Terrible waste of good food ,but it was husband's want. Second one a friend and I scalded and scrapped the hair. She took home the head, the feet, and we gave her a very large ham for her help.

We have the cut meat like pork chops, rib roasts, ribs, bacon, hams. We haven't smoked the bacon or hams yet. We made breakfast sausage, boudin,and casing sausage. We used the small intentines for the casing. What a job! It was wonderful. I'll do it again. Maybe 2 a year.

Thanks Catherine!!!

For the record, we have butchered a bull at 19 months old and he was with cows but not other bulls. He wasn't tainted.

[Jenn]

I don't raise pigs but find the discussion interesting. For the record, you can butcher bucks in full rut too without taint IF you don't touch the hair to the meat....which you are not supposed to do anyway.
-Jenn

[milkmaid]

Dec 6, 2010 22:12:15 GMT -5 Liz said:

From what I can gather online there are two camps--those who do detect it and those who don't.
In the UK the castration of pigs has been "outlawed" (not sure if it is a law or a strong admonishment) due to pig supposed discomfort and preferential humane treatment. These are rules for factory pigs I believe.

Right. Fellow I work for in research who has more experience with hogs than most people could ever dream of can't detect it - his wife can. When they went to the UK they simply didn't eat pork because she couldn't stand the taint.

Castration is outlawed for all pigs in the UK to the best of my knowledge.

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Per Catherine's request I am copying my comments from her other thread here:

I am one that can not abide goaty milk or even 'cow-y' milk... ewww...

I have heard about Walter Jeffery's experiment with butchering boars and I think that the key is keeping them segreated from females and on clean pasture. Still, I have some trouble putting my faith in it... 200 or 300 pounds of meat is just too much too take a chance with IMO... some may be fine but what if one isn't? It's like any other risk... If you get the bad one it's 100% bad for you. Our intact male that was butchered at 5 1/2 months had the slightest, teeniest taint... still palatable but it made me nervous enough that I decided to castrate our next Red Wattle. We have decided that if we ever butcher PJ we will castrate and wait a couple of months... It can be done at any age really... just need bigger equipment. RW boars are actually big enough to fit in a cattle squeeze chute and can be done pretty simply that way. Maybe an answer.

I will castrate anything I am going to be eating knowing that even the slightest whiff of taint will ruin it for me. I know exactly what you mean about the sensitive nose/tastebuds that others don't have... Don once shot two rutting bucks in the middle of a horn clashing fight... every time he cooked that venison the smell of musk would run me out of the house... then he and the boys would sit down and gleefully eat the meat... It must be nice!
The good ol' boys here go out in the woods and trap boars, castrate them and let them go for next years hunt so I think it is widely believed, in our area at least, that you can reverse taint... No personal experience except in taking a bull out of service before butcherring which yielded good meat.

That sums up what I said in the other thread... but I will also say I am a nervous Nelly... My meat pigs are pretty expensive by the time I get them raised (fresh milk that could have gone into other shares, veggies that could have been sold, bought in feed, etc.) and to lose one for ANY reason would be a disaster. Also as I said above I am one of those super sensitive people who can not even abide goats milk AT ALL. We did do the 'no hair touching meat' and every other precaution when butchering the those rutting bucks... it was still horrible... but my point was more that while I gagged to even smell it my husband and five boys never batted an eye as they wolfed it down and asked "what smell?". And I LOVE venison so that wasn't it.

Someone also made the point that the RW boars do not stink when alive... and at least as far as PJ my 2 year old boar goes that is true.

[Shelley (whistlingtrain)]

Melissa, I'm with you. The first sign of heat in my sows is the smell of boar wafting through the air. No-one else could smell it, but I can. It's in the air, the saliva, the manure. We did some butcher pigs once, and we didn't have a chance to castrate that batch. I didn't smell it while they were alive, but once they were chilled and hung I could smell it in the meat. The butcher let me taste test to make sure it would be ok for the customers who bought it. I couldn't taste it, but I could smell it. I can smell it in storebought meat, especially sausages. I don't know if I can avoid castrating because of the risk of taint, but I don't know that I would castrate another full-grown boar, even if the vet did a great job. It was way more traumatic than it is on little babies. They seem to get over it much quicker.

I will say that a week after his surgery, I didn't smell boar on him anymore. He should be good sausage next month.

My sister thinks I'm crazy, but I swear boar scent is used in some perfumes/colognes. I have been in a crowd and smelled it on people. Why would anyone think of that. Yuck.

I am also very sensitive to goat milk. I like most goat cheeses, but the scent of goat wafting up from my coffee is too much. I'll take my cows, thank you.

[pubwvj]

Dec 7, 2010 14:36:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

I think that the key is keeping them segreated from females and on clean pasture.

That is what we were told many years ago. What we found with years of testing was that the segregation was not necessary. For years we have run hundreds of boars and females together on pasture and sell boar and gilts every week to stores, restaurants and individuals. At this point many thousands of people have eaten the meat from our pastured pigs - both boars and gilts.

Boar taint is real, in a small number of lines of pigs, under the wrong production methods, with the wrong diet. Genetics, pasturing, fiber all help improve your odds of getting taint free meat. If you're breeding your own then you can easily breed to not have it since it is rare. In any case you can manage away from it.

Of interest, even gilts and sows can have taint. Skatole, one of the taint chemicals, is produced in the intestines. Management (pasturing instead of pens) helps with that. Androstenone, the other primary taint chemical, is produced in the testes but also in the adrenal glands to a smaller degree so sows again could have it in rare cases. Other things sometimes get blamed on boar taint like pre-slaughter stress, poor kill, poor bleed out, improper chilling, improper meat handling, etc. As Dorian Grey said, "It's complicated."

Another factor is only about 3/4 of people can actually taste (smell) boar taint so it is possible for you to be one of those lucky 25% that can't. This makes it important to have many people doing the taste testing. Women tend to be a little more sensitive to it than men but that isn't absolute.

For more info than you ever wanted on this topic see:
flashweb.com/?s=taint

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
SugarMtnFarm.com/csa

[Shelley (whistlingtrain)]

Walter, this is really interesting. We do have closer quarters than you do, so that would be an interesting thing to try. One of the reasons I sold all my sows but 1 is to get back to a more wholesome way of raising the pigs on our small vegetable farm. There just isn't enough room to pasture a bunch of pigs here. Have you noticed a smell on sows like maple syrup? Not exactly that, but that's what it reminds me of when I smell it. It's not offensive to me, like the boar taint is.

[Stacy]

I haven't smelled a thing on our new boar. However, both sows he's with are bred. He's also a red wattle, so I wonder if I will smell it when they are done giving birth and go back into heat.
The big joke around here is that I can smell a rats' fart from six miles away. My nose works GREAT! I couldn't even garden the one year we had to bring a goat buck in because although he was not NEAR the garden area, I couldn't breathe with him there!

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Hi Walter,

If I am reading you correctly you are saying that boar taint is a real possibility that could potentially ruin meat for the 3/4 of the population who are repulsed by it and it does occur even in your own herds occasionally, since you have a provision for breeding away from it. Perhaps on the scale you are raising pigs the occasional tainted pork is not really a problem for you, but it does still occur, correct? I am also reading that individual people, up to 25%, are unable to detect the smell of taint (like my husband and sons) so those who swear by the fact that their uncastrated males do not have taint may very well be in this group and just be unable to smell taint- potentially eating tainted meat without realizing it.

While I have the opportunity and if you don't mind, I have a couple more questions for you too since you have quite a reputation in pig circles.

You say you are running your gilts and boars together... so are you butchering the gilts before they come into heat or are you butchering pregnant gilts? If butchering before breeding activity then doesn't' it really have the same effect as segregation?

Also when you say you are breeding away from tainty lines exactly what do you mean? Is your breeding stock housed separately or are they also kept in 'herds' on pasture? I would think it would be hard to sort out 'lines' if you are running large mixed sex groups? Or are we talking about 'lines' as they are referred to in a specific breed? I was under the impression that the majority of your pigs are mixed breed.

If taint is only discovered at processing how do you deal with the meat that is tainted? We only have a small herd and only keep our own pigs (and a couple for friends/family) to slaughter weight, the majority are sold as weaners. If we get taint then it is too late to do anything else with the meat. I could not justify feeding to my dogs meat that costs me that amount of money to raise unless it would otherwise be wasted, i.e. due to illness leading to medication residue or the natural death of the animal preventing fitness for human consumption. Even the idea of 200+ pounds of highly seasoned sausage doesn't appeal to me in a single pig/single family situation. For these reasons something that can be prevented, like boar taint, doesn't make my list of acceptable risks.

I have to say that this conversation for me is purely self interest. I raise a small herd of Red Wattle pigs and partner with someone who does not castrate. I worry that if tainted meat is sold or even given away as RW meat with my farm name somehow attached to it that it could potentially hurt future sales. So I am very curious to know just exactly HOW certain we can be that we will not indeed do exactly that. There is also the not so small matter that in our area very few will believe that this is even possible (untainted boar meat from breeding age boars kept with sexually active females that is) so even if for that reason alone I choose to castrate.

And the last question; Exactly why do you have preference for the uncastrated male, beyond the obvious extra work of the castration itself?

Extensively edited to better reflect my thoughts and rationale.

[Lesli]

That was an exceptionally well written post Melissa. I think you and I are completely of one mind here!! You see because in the wild hogs that I admit I have eaten more of than conventional pork, I am not sure I would even trust a baby castrated piglet for myself. I personally plan to encourage all baby boars to be sold unless we decide to keep one for future breeding, as castrated boars, and NONE of them for my freezer--ha ha hows that for faith in what you grow?!! LOL Oh, I might try a young casterated boar. Just so I can say I have. I am sure hating the idea of putting that kind of money into feeding one to butcher and have it to be tainted. I personally have not found it to be such a rare thing down here, maybe up there where you live. But I would think that a wild hog would live a life of no confinement, plenty of natural feed, but bleck! they are very veril and STINK to high heaven.

Here is what I had on the other thread:

1st post:
Janene, I am with you on the boar taint smell. You can not get a boar past my nose with out me knowing it! In my opinion you can smell a boar when it is alive, like you would when it is dead. We have not butchered any RW's yet, but I have to say, our RW boar smells exactly like my gilts. I have smelled our hamp boar before, and wild boars, if you were blind I don't think you'd know Squeaks was a boar! And while the gal we got our original two from said they always castrate them, she said they sold a 1200 lb. boar and the people butchered him and said it was the best meat they had ever eaten!! I don't know how sensitive their noses are. But have to say it intrigues me.

2nd post:

Well, I think we will probably go ahead and castrate our little boy meat pigs, and sell intact boys for breeding purposes, and any one who butchers one is on their own. LOL. Because like I said, I have never met a boar that could make it past my nose -dead (cooking), I am hopeful about the RW's and would enjoy them not smelling. But I am not sure I trust it either. Rich said if you wait till they are grown-- if they "got it", castrating them will make no difference. "If they got it, they got it-- once they are grown it's too late." Speaking about a fella that has butchered many a hogs, wild and domestic.

I think there are folks who can not detect the scent/taste of boar taint, just like some can not detect ketosis in milk. Can't get that past my nose either. How lovely it must be to be so blessed (not being able to detect the smells/tastes).

Lesli

[Lesli]

Something else, I think pork for some is like--the occasional eats. Where as I have had LOTS of practice at it. ;D I have had only ground wild hog sow meat for years with very little beef. We have used the ground sow in lieu of beef. So if folks had to eat it regularly like every other meal, like I have, they really might develop a more keen tongue/nose for pork. Not to sound like a pork snob, because we sincerely ate it for the sheer reason that we were unable to afford beef or chicken that we did not raise.

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Lesli- Don and I have hunted in these woods for more than 25 years. Before the farm 90% of our families meat was in the form of game. With five sons and a husband who are avid hunters and fisherman we have eaten just about anything that can be caught or shot in the Piney woods. Unfortunately our Pineywoods rooters, Javalina and even feral hog boars are strongly tainted almost always. That is why they are trapped and castrated then returned for next years hunting and trapping while sows and gilts are butchered outright. I am understanding your wondering how it can be when they have all that room to roam and fatten on acorns. Maybe it has to do with our very hot climate, who knows? Buck goats are stinkier here than in colder climes and heat seems to multiply odors in many situations. Hot and stinky just seem to go together

[Lesli]

Melissa, or Catherine, not to hijack the true reason for this thread, but what do you all think about feeding acorns to the hogs? like if we had super duper crop on local trees, we rake the acorns up and mix with feed for the hogs? can this hurt them? I know with cows there is a toxicity level. What do y'all think?

Lesli

[pubwvj]

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

Hi Walter, If I am reading you correctly you are saying that boar taint is a real possibility

Correct, a small minority of breeds of pigs of sufficient age under the right conditions (feed, management, etc) have boar taint in the studies that have been done. Qualifications, qualifications, qualifications...

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

and it does occur even in your own herds occasionally, since you have a provision for breeding away from it.

No, we have never actually had taint in our herds. We tested all new animals for it. Since it only occurs in a minority of breeds in the right conditions and we don't have the genetics or conditions we don't get it. We have tested up to 30 months of age.

We "breed away" by carefully testing our herds over a period of years and then not introducing new genetics without testing those before using them as boar meat. I taste test a boar and sow by tasting their offspring - hard to keep breeding them if I taste them directly. If you had two pigs to choose to breed from and one had taint (biopsy or offspring slaughter tests) then breed the one without taint in the future. Anyone can also work at breeding away by breeding the pigs that show the least taint.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

Perhaps on the scale you are raising pigs the occasional tainted pork is not really a problem for you, but it does still occur, correct?

No, we do not get any taint in our pork. That was actually a rather rude way of backhanding. Please don't keep trying to say we do have taint or that we're "too big a scale" or something like that. Politeness will get you more help.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

I am also reading that individual people, up to 25%, are unable to detect the smell of taint (like my husband and sons) so those who swear by the fact that their uncastrated males do not have taint may very well be in this group and just be unable to smell taint- potentially eating tainted meat without realizing it.

This is why I have repeatedly said that you should have multiple people, ideally those who know they can smell it, do testing. To maximize the chance of smelling it cook the back fat. I can smell it as can my eldest son. We can both smell it on live pigs as well - we don't even need to cook the fat to smell the chemicals. Some people's noses are more sensitive than others. My wife can't smell it but she is known to not have a very sensitive sense of smell. I've been around other pigs than our own which is why I know I can smell it quite clearly. If you want to smell it take a good whiff of the foam on a boar's face when he's courting a sow. Even boars without taint in the meat will put out the scent then.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

You say you are running your gilts and boars together... so are you butchering the gilts before they come into heat or are you butchering pregnant gilts?

The gilts aren't old enough yet to breed. A gilt doesn't take until she has heated several times. Those initial heats are false, the reproductive system is just ramping up. Hormones are there but no fecundity yet. You may even notice that older experienced boars will ignore those gilts although young immature boars will pay attention.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

If butchering before breeding activity then doesn't' it really have the same effect as segregation?

All ages are there so it does not have the effect of segregation - hormones are there. Boars also come to start sexual activity earlier than gilts will heat or take. Boars, and gilts, don't reach sexual proficiency until after slaughter age but they do have hormones and there is sex play.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

Also when you say you are breeding away from tainty lines exactly what do you mean?

See above.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

Is your breeding stock housed separately or are they also kept in 'herds' on pasture?

We don't "house" - our animals are out on pasture using managed rotational grazing, just like with sheep. This is one of the factors to keep in mind with taint. Penning and housing produce taint, specifically of the skatole variety.

Sometimes we've had separate herds, sometimes mixed.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

I would think it would be hard to sort out 'lines' if you are running large mixed sex groups?

Keep track of breedings and which animals are in each herd. Pretty standard. We're here almost always and pay attention to what is happening with the various animals, who's heating, who's at what stage of gestation, etc. It's pretty obvious.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

If taint is only discovered at processing how do you deal with the meat that is tainted?

We don't have taint so it isn't an issue for us. This is why I suggest people figure out if they have taint through progressive testing. Chance are you don't but if you're going to be doing breeding and pigs on a scale large enough to deal with this then test and retest to prove it to yourself.

So what to do with tainted meat? Traditionally it was ground and mixed with the fat of barrows, gilts, sows or cattle to make spicy sausages, pepperoni, etc. I have read that there are some chefs who specifically want intact boars for the added flavor which they rave about it. Market it.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

For these reasons something that can be prevented, like boar taint, doesn't make my list of acceptable risks.

Then castrate your pigs. Easy solution. Easy answer. Pick your risks and methods. That's what freedom is all about, right!

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

I have to say that this conversation for me is purely self interest. I raise a small herd of Red Wattle pigs and partner with someone who does not castrate.

Then they've already tested for you?

I've spoken with many people who raise Red Wattles and don't castrate and have no problem with taint. Sounds like that isn't a problem breed. Duroc is the one I have heard of having the most trouble but even there not all of them have boar taint. I've spoke with several people who have any of many different breeds who don't castrate and find no taint. I have spoken with almost nobody who actually has had taint. Almost. There have been a couple so thus I say it is real, in some breeds with the right conditions, etc.

By the way, castration won't prevent taint. Even barrows, gilts and sows can have taint. Other causes include:
-Adrenal glands (above kidneys)
-Intestines (Skatole)
-Undescended testicle (oops, someone missed one!)
-Exposure to excessive amounts of manure (dirty pen syndrome)
-Stress at pre-slaughter
-Poor slaughter
-Poor bleed out (blood left in or not out fast enough)
-Poor chilling (too long to come down to temperature)
-Poor butchering
-Poor meat handling (not keeping it cold, contamination)
Sometimes the processor will blame taint for their errors. Handy.

By the way, again, there is a myth that you must remove the balls from a boar within 30 seconds after killing him to prevent taint. This is false. Consider that taint is stored in the fat, not the blood. The blood is drained out. The taste of the fat is developed 2 weeks before slaughter. That is if you feed apples for the two weeks (make it a month for extra bonus) before slaughter you get apply pork (yeah!). Likewise, if you've been feeding fish to your pigs to raise them it is shown that you should take them off the fish for the last month and feed them grains, dairy, etc to get the taste of the fish out of the pork (fat specifically). So, cutting off the testicles within 30 seconds isn't going to do any good. If there was going to be taint the chemicals would already be in the fat. Another myth busted.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

I am very curious to know just exactly HOW certain we can be

Test, test, test and establish it for yourself. Read my blog posts about taint where I detail this and a lot more of what we did to figure these things out, links to research, etc. But I think you really need to keep castrating. It makes you too uncomfortable to take the risk. It will take years to establish the lack of taint and you'll be stressed that whole time. No need. Be cool.

Dec 8, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -5 Nonesuch Melissa said:

And the last question; Exactly why do you have preference for the uncastrated male, beyond the obvious extra work of the castration itself?

I've done a lot of castrations. In a few cases piglets died in my hands because they had hidden scrotal hernias. When castrated the pressure of their internals shot their small intestines out the incision. These were needless deaths. Had I not castrate them they probably would have grown up fine to slaughter weight. Very stressful for the pigs. Very stressful for us. Have that happen a few times and you'll start wondering if there is a better way. I did research and found that not all the world castrates. That in many countries it is considered unnecessary and that scientific research said boar taint is mostly a myth. This led me to testing our pigs. Read all about it on my blog where I discuss this ad nausum.

The good news is it is still somewhat of a free country so you can castrate or not. But beware that you may lose that right. In Europe they are banning it. Animal nuts would take away your right to castrate - heck, they would take away your right to interact with animals. Fight that.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
NoNAIS.org No Way No How

[pubwvj]

Dec 8, 2010 10:22:59 GMT -5 Shelley (whistlingtrain) said:

Have you noticed a smell on sows like maple syrup? Not exactly that, but that's what it reminds me of when I smell it.

I have heard of this but never smelled it. Although I'm very familiar with maple syrup since I live in Vermont. The first time I read of this it was a Pot Bellied Pig variety that had it. The woman who owned the pigs said that it was a genetic trait. More recently there was a farm blog in Germany that was talking about it. Sorry but I don't have the link.

[pubwvj]

Lesli, I wish I had acorns. I'm planting oaks. Seriously. I have heard from many chefs that they would love a source of pastured whey/acorn fed pork. We have the pasture and whey but the oak trees end about 600' lower in altitude than our farm. What I read recently is that the acorns can have some toxicity to horses, sheep, goats and cattle but not to pigs. Also there is an acorn without the tannic acid so that would have less of the bitterness.

[Nonesuch Melissa]

Thanks Walter.

Walter said "No, we do not get any taint in our pork. That was actually a rather rude way of backhanding. Please don't keep trying to say we do have taint or that we're "too big a scale" or something like that. Politeness will get you more help."

For the record no backhanding intended just genuine questions. My point was that in a big operation if you did get off flavors it would be reasonable to just grind it all for peperoni... not something that could be done on a smaller scale unless one could eat pizza for an entire year. There was no implication intended that being big is bad... but you state you do hundreds of pigs... we do a tiny fraction of that so some things may be different which was at the heart of the question. Since you do not have taint it is a moot point.

Interesting that you have never had any tainted pork.

There is a disease in humans that gives a distinct maple syrup smell to the urine... wonder if there is something similar in pigs?

[Lesli]

Thanks!!!
Walter, have any of your tests, or people you know lead you to believe that heat and region of the country can indeed affect taint? Because the wild boar pork does indeed have severe taint. Europeans are the ones buying up the wild pork that is trapped and sold here. The boars are the ones that bring the biggest money. The larger, smellier they are the more $ they bring. In fact they actually pay a bonus for boars over 100lbs.

I will have to get to raking up those acorns!

Here is an interesting article:
Harvesting the wild:
acorns

By Jackie Clay


When I was just a little girl, I used to collect acorns by the boxfull as they fell in the fall. I didn’t know why. They just felt nice in the hand and somehow a big bunch of them felt satisfying. Could that be because somewhere in my ancestors’ time, acorns were a very important food? Native Americans all across oak-growing North and South America harvested acorns, which were nearly as important a food as corn or beans. Such tribes as the Cherokee, Apache, Pima, and Ojibwa routinely harvested and used the acorn. These Indian gatherers taught early settlers how to harvest and use acorns in their cooking, as they did corn and other traditional foods. Even today, many Indians gather acorns, both to use themselves and to sell in Mexican markets.

And those bright, shining round acorns are very good for you, besides tasting great.
Health benefits of acorns

Acorns have been tested and found to be possibly the best food for effectively controlling blood sugar levels. They have a low sugar content, but leave a sweetish aftertaste, making them very good in stews, as well as in breads of all types.

Ground, leached acorn meal, ready to dry. The bitterness is gone.
Ground, leached acorn meal, ready to dry. The bitterness is gone.

They are rich in complex carbohydrates, minerals, and vitamins while they are lower in fat than most other nuts. They are also a good source of fiber.

An additional benefit from eating acorns is in the gathering. Acorns, although they “fall from trees,” must be picked and processed before eating, which requires a walk, then bending and picking up. All of these are good exercise. In fact, that is why many “primitive” foods are so healthy. They require exercise just to put them on the table, not just a short trip to the convenience store or fast food joint.
But acorns taste bitter!

One of the first things I learned as a little girl harvesting acorns was that they tasted awful. Unfortunately, many acorns do taste bitter. This is because they contain tannin, a bitter substance in oaks which is used to tan leather. Real pucker power here. Some varieties of acorns contain more tannin than others. They range from the Emory oak of the southwestern United States and northern Mexico, which is so mild it can be used without processing, to some black oaks with very bitter acorns, requiring lengthy processing to render edible.

Generally, the best acorns to harvest are those of the white oaks, such as the swamp oak, Oregon white oak, and burr oak, as they contain less bitter tannin. Luckily, nearly all acorns can be made usable with natural processing which renders them nutty and sweet.
From the mighty oak

Acorns are one grain that literally grows on trees. Even a small oak tree can produce a bushel or more of tasty, nutritious acorns. And that grandaddy oak out in the pasture could produce nearly a thousand pounds. Now that is a lot of eating from a small area.

There are now several varieties of grafted oak trees, which bear nearly double the harvest of wild trees. These trees are available for purchase from specialty nursery companies.

Nice fat, ripe acorns, ready to be used for acorn meal or flour
Nice fat, ripe acorns, ready to be used for acorn meal or flour

Not only are acorns great food for us, but for many birds and animals as well. Any deer hunter can tell you that one of the best spots to ambush a wily buck is on a trail to a big oak tree. Deer and wild turkeys harvest these nutritious acorns to fatten up for winter.

Early settlers must have noticed this, as they soon began to turn their hogs out into the oak woods to fatten on the bounty of acorns. I accidently had this happen to two of my own pigs. I had a litter of weaner pigs, six in number in an outside pen. While we were in town, a stray dog came by and had great fun, chasing the little porkers around the pen. None were injured, but two of them vaulted the pen wall next to the shed and took off for the woods as fast as their little legs would run.

We hunted, called, and scoured the woods for days. Weeks. No piggies. By then, we figured a black bear, which were numerous in our woods, had a midnight snack of pork on the hoof.

Then one November, I was riding my horse down one of the wooded trails through huge old oaks, when I noticed turned-up fresh soil. Bear? Nope, my “bear” had left pig tracks. I tied my horse and scouted further, discovering seemingly acres of ground dug up underneath those bounteous oak trees. My lost piggies were found. But those tracks looked pretty big.

To make a long story short, we corralled those errant porkers and hauled them home. On putting them in the pen next to their brothers and sisters, we were shocked. Out in the woods, they really looked big, but now they looked huge. They were a third again as big. On butchering, the woods raised hogs weighed 290 pounds, while the grain fed hogs barely made 200 dressed. So much for “modern feeding.” Of course the pigs had access to roots, grasses, insects, and more. But I credit much of their hearty size to those fat acorns they were gorging themselves upon.

As acorns hold a long time under the tree, the hogs were feasting on last year’s crop all summer, then the fresh crop come fall. Not a bad natural feed.
Harvesting

First of all, you’ll have to check out your local oaks during the spring when the leaves and underbrush are not as dense. Get a little pocket tree book and try to identify the oaks you find. In many areas, there are several varieties of oaks available to the acorn harvester. Some are quite mild and sweet and others pretty darned bitter. If you have a choice, try to find a variety with mild meat and only a little initial tang of tannin.

My son, Bill Spaulding’s hunting “shack” sits right in the middle of white oaks, which produce “grain from trees,” as some Indian tribes refer to acorns, and also lure big deer, which come to feed
My son, Bill Spaulding’s hunting “shack” sits right in the middle of white oaks, which produce “grain from trees,” as some Indian tribes refer to acorns, and also lure big deer, which come to feed on sweet, fat acorns.

You may have to simply nibble and check, come fall. Different varieties of oak have different shaped acorns. Crack a nice fat acorn with no worm hole. Examine the meat. It should be yellowish, not black and dusty (insects). Now, simply nibble and chew up a part of the nut. If it is very bitter, spit it out and try another kind of acorn. When you find a grove of relatively mild acorns, note this for next year and harvest away.

As the understory is usually very thin below a decent sized oak tree, the acorns are quite easy to pick up. Depending on the variety of oak, your acorns will drop between late September and October, more or less, depending on your climate zone. The best way I’ve found to pick up acorns is to simply pick a nice dry, sunny day as soon as the acorns begin to drop and take baskets and sacks to the woods and sit down and pick them up. If you wait too long, the handy dandy squirrels and other wild critters will beat you to them, leaving only the worm-riddled hulls behind.
Processing

The term “processing” brings to mind machines and chemical additives. With acorns, processing simply means making them ready to eat.

When I get home with my bounteous haul, I spread them out a layer thick on an old sheet which I have laid on a roof, corner of the yard, or some other out-of-the-way dry, sunny place. This lets them sun dry and prevents any possible molding before I get them shelled. It will also kill any insect eggs or larvae, which might be inside. If you cannot lay the acorns out in the sun, spread them in a single layer on cookie sheets in a very slow oven for an hour.

Some acorns, such as those of the Emory oak, require no more processing than cracking them open and eating them. Like most nuts, acorns of all types benefit from toasting on a cookie sheet in an oven at 175° F. Stir to prevent scorching.

However, most acorns do contain enough tannin to make leaching this bitter substance out necessary. To do this, simply sit down and crack a big bowlful of acorns, carefully examining each nut for black holes, which indicates a worm is inside rather than a wholesome plump yellowish-beige nut. Acorns are very easy to crack. The shell is pliable and quite thin. Pop the cap off, then simply grasp it with a pair of pliers and give a squeeze. Don’t mash the kernel. Simply crack the shell. Then peel it off and toss the kernel into a bowl.

When all are done, get out your food grinder. Put a fine knife on the grinder and run the shelled acorns through it. This makes a coarse meal. Place this in a large crock or glass bowl. Then add boiling water to cover and let stand an hour. Drain and throw away the brownish, unappetizing water. Repeat. Then taste the meal. It should have a bit of a bitter tang, then taste sweet as you chew a piece. Continue leaching out the tannin as long as necessary.

When the acorn meal is mild tasting, it is ready to dry. I usually lay out a piece of old white sheet in a basket and pour the wet meal on it. Then, gathering up the edges, jelly bag style, I press and squeeze, getting out as much of the water (and tannin) as possible.

Author grinding shelled acorns in a hand grinder
Author grinding shelled acorns in a hand grinder

One caution—don’t let wet acorn meal lie about for hours, or it will surely mold. Keep at the leaching process.

Spread the damp meal out in a shallow layer on a cookie sheet or on sheets of your dehydrator. Then begin to dry it. In the oven, you only need the pilot light or the very lowest oven setting. As it begins to dry, take your hands and very carefully crumble any chunks which hold moisture. Slowly your meal will begin to look quite good.

When the meal is completely dry, run it through a fine setting on your grain mill. The traditional method was to use a stone (mano in the southwest) hand grinder to crush the meal on a large, flat stone (metate). It is now ready for use in your recipes. If you produced more meal than you need right now, you can store the meal in the freezer or refrigerator in an airtight bag or jar. The dry, ground meal will last a week or so, stored in an airtight jar on the shelf. But, because of the oil, the meal will begin to go rancid, as will whole wheat flour and homeground cornmeal.

You can also grind your meal in a food processor or blender a little at a time. I smile, thinking of the vast difference between grinding acorns between stones and using a food mill. What would our ancestors think?
Using acorn meal

Some Native Peoples called acorns “grain from the tree,” indicating the use they had for it as a grain in cakes, breads, and thickening for stews and soups. Today folks use “cream of this and that” soups for the same thing.

I think processed acorns taste like a cross between hazelnuts and sunflower seeds, and I often include acorn meal in my multi-grain bread recipes. Adding half a cup of acorn meal to a two-loaf bread recipe and reducing the flour, as needed, works quite well. Because the acorn meal is a natural sweetener, I only use a bit of honey to feed the yeast while softening it, relying on the acorn meal to give sweetness to the bread. No complaints yet.

As acorn meal is very dense, you will have to take care to get your bread to rise when adding it. One way to ensure this is to use hot liquid and beat in your flour, making a batter. Then cool so you can add the yeast and the rest of the ingredients. This helps release wheat gluten to let the bread rise, despite heavy ingredients. Indian bread was always very dense and heavy, as there was seldom, if ever, wheat or yeast added to the recipe. It takes wheat gluten, as well as yeast, to make bread rise properly. Indian breads were often small, thin cakes baked before the fire on large, reflecting rocks. They were not puffy, large loaves as we are accustomed to today.

While camping some time, why not tuck your food grinder into your kitchen pack and try making some old-time Indian bread out of acorn meal. It really puts you in contact with past ways in a hurry. Here is an Apache recipe for acorn cakes.

Apache acorn cakes:

1 cup acorn meal, ground fine
1 cup cornmeal
1/4 cup honey
pinch of salt

Mix the ingredients with enough warm water to make a moist, not sticky dough. Divide into 12 balls. Let rest, covered, for 10 minutes or so. With slightly moist hands, pat the balls down into thick tortilla-shaped breads. Bake on an ungreased cast iron griddle over campfire coals or on clean large rocks, propped up slightly before the coals. If using the stones, have them hot when you place the cakes on them. You’ll have to lightly peel an edge to peek and see if they are done. They will be slightly brown. Turn them over and bake on the other side, if necessary.

These cakes were carried on journeys dry and eaten alone or with shredded meat. We cheat and add homemade butter, too. But then, we are spoiled.

Multi-grain bread with acorn meal:

Let’s take a look at one of my mixed grain breads with acorn meal to see how it differs from the Indian cakes above.

1 1/2 cups rolled oats
1/2 cup cornmeal
1/2 cup coarse ground, leached acorn meal
1 cup lukewarm water
2 Tbsp. dry granulated yeast
2 1/2 cups boiling water
1 Tbsp. salt
1/4 cup vegetable oil
2 eggs, beaten
About 8 cups whole wheat flour
1/2 cup honey
butter

Pour boiling water over oats, cornmeal, and acorn meal. Set aside. Dissolve the yeast in lukewarm water. In a large mixing bowl, beat the hot oatmeal mixture with the rest of the ingredients, except for the yeast and butter, adding the flour a cup at a time until you get a medium batter. Cool to lukewarm. Then add the yeast. Mix well and add enough flour until you have a spongy dough that is not sticky. Knead, adding flour if necessary to keep from being sticky. Place in a greased bowl and grease the top of dough, then cover it with a moist, warm kitchen towel and set it in a warm place until it doubles in size. Punch down, knead several times, and let rise again. Shape into loaves and place in greased bread pans or on a greased cookie sheet.

This also makes great rolls, so you can use a cake pan, making golf ball sized rolls. Cover and let rise again until almost double. Preheat the oven to 350° F and bake for about 35 minutes or until the tops are golden brown. Brush with butter and cool.

You can also make this bread in camp, using smaller loaves and a reflector oven or forming 1/2 inch thick by 1 inch wide by 8 inch long sticks and twisting the dough around a green stick and gently baking over medium coals—never a fire.

So far, we’ve talked about using acorn meal as a grain. But the acorn is so much more versatile. Most Native Americans and early settlers used acorn meal as either an ingredient in mush, which is sort of a thick, mealy soup, or pounded with meat, fat, and berries, making pemmican. In a survival situation which requires lightweight, high calorie foods, pemmican would be a good choice. (But, of course, many of us really don’t need the extra fat in our diets.)

Here are a couple recipes for these uses of the acorn. When I say “acorn meal,” I mean ground, leached-till-mild acorn meal, not raw.

Cornmeal and acorn mush:

4 cups water
1 tsp. salt
1/2 cup acorn meal, ground
about 1 cup cornmeal

Bring salted water to a boil and sprinkle the acorn meal into the boiling water, stirring briskly with a wire or twig whisk. Then add the cornmeal. Add just enough cornmeal to make a thick, bubbling batch in which a wood spoon will stand up fairly well. Place the saucepan in a larger container holding two inches or more of boiling water. (Use a double boiler, if you have one.) Simmer the mush until quite thick, about 45 minutes, stirring occasionally to keep it from lumping.

Cornmeal and acorn mush is very good for breakfast on a cold morning. It can be served with sweetened milk and a dab of wild fruit jam or homemade butter. But it is also great as a main course lunch or dinner. You can also add salsa or bacon bits and grated cheese on top to get great variety. This mush is very filling and will stick to your ribs.

I often make a double batch and pour the “extra” in a greased bread pan. When cooled in the fridge overnight, it becomes quite solid and can be sliced in half inch thick slices, dipped in flour and fried in oil, first one side, then turn and fry the other. Fried acorn and cornmeal mush is one of our absolutely favorite camp (or at-home) breakfasts. Serve it with butter, salt, and thick fruit jam or maple syrup. Of course, David likes his with catsup.

You might want to try your hand at a “modern” type of pemmican. It doesn’t keep on the trail for months, but it is pretty good.

Modern pemmican:

1 lb. lean stewing meat, cut quite small
1/2 cup dehydrated wild plums
1/2 cup acorn meal

Boil the lean stewing meat. When it is tender, drain and allow it to dry in a bowl. Grind all of the ingredients together in a meat grinder using a fine blade. Grind again, mixing finely, distributing the ingredients very well. Place in a covered dish and refrigerate overnight. (Or you can eat right away, but like many foods, the refrigerating allows the flavors to blend nicely.) You can serve this on any flatbread, such as a tortilla. It is best served warm, or you can reheat it in the pan in the oven like a meatloaf.

Acorn meal can also be used in place of a good portion (or all) of the nuts in most desserts, from brownies to cookies. It does depend on the variety of acorn you have available and the taste after leaching. Some acorn meal never gets “nutty,” only mild, while the meal of other acorns, such as those of the Emory oak, are so sweet that you can eat them without leaching, or with very little leaching.

You will have to experiment a bit here. But the end results are usually surprising.

Oh gee! You say oak trees don’t grow where you live? Well, just because they aren’t “native” doesn’t mean you can’t plant some. No matter where I go, I always plant a big bunch of food producing trees, shrubs, and perennial plants. And a lot of them certainly aren’t native to the area. Of course, you can just plant acorns or buy seedling trees from a nursery. From an acorn or small seedling, you can usually figure you’ll begin to get a decent amount of acorns in about 10 years.

Want faster results? Several nurseries are carrying grafted oak varieties, meant for food production. And at least one nursery has a very good hybrid of the burr oak that produces mild acorns requiring no leaching. You can write to St Lawrence Nurseries, 325 State Hwy. 345, Potsdam, NY 13676 or find them online at www.sln.potsdam.ny.us. They have a free catalog which includes many very hardy fruits and nuts.

Oaks don’t grow where we will be moving, but you can darned betcha I’ll be planting them so I can enjoy those fabulous acorns. Until then, I’ll just have to drive down to my son Bill’s place near Oak Lake and pick a few baskets so we can enjoy all those good acorn recipes.