C 3 Milking machines and let down

[mishy]

Hello All,
Been reading around trying to learn as much info as I can! I am totally new to all this cow fun. Never been around cows or nothin' - til now. Got a cow and her calf 2 weeks ago and been milking for one week yesterday. I bought a milking machine, and had several days of messing around with that to get it to work right and hooked up fast/er. However, I am NOT getting a let down even with the milking machine. When I read threads on let down they say "you must be hand milking" SO whazzup? Do I just leave it on her and hope she lets down??? I have the clear claw so I can kinda see what is going on. She was very kicky at the beginning (she has never been milked before- this is her 2nd calf), so I tie up her foot. She seemed to kick around a bit when she quit giving me milk (no let down), so I took it off (this is before I read about this let down stuff). How long do I leave it on there- will she finally let down or can they just be super stubborn even with that machine sucking away???
For the past 2 days I have been milking by hand (not worth the set up and clean up for me to get so little milk), and after I get out the little bit she gives me, I let the calf on her and then I milk two teats while the calf gets two.
I also need to increase her milk supply. Her calf is 5 mos old, and I am getting 3 cups at the most- that is with co-milking with the calf. I'd like to build her up to a gallon (that would be a dream), or at least a quart!! So I am hoping that she'll up the production since I am demanding milk as well as her calf. Tips anyone?? I am thinking leaving the calf on her helps me because now there is me demanding in the morning and the calf who is on her all day (I remove her about 4/5ish), but let me know if that is wrong.

Also, I forget where it was on here, but someone posted that she doesn't let her calf in with the cow if the cow doesn't let down her milk. But what is the rest of the story? Do you milk her again in an hour, two hours, or wait til the evening milker???
Thanks so much!!

[mishy]

PS, I feel the need to explain (as I am imagining you are all shaking your heads in wonder that I would buy a cow for milk that is giving so little). I live on an tropical island. There are not many cows here at all, and as far as I know NOT ONE PERSON here milks a cow!!! So basically I took what I could get. She is mostly holstein, and has some "island flavor" breed in her. Calves are left on the mamas for 6 mos here, so I was thankful that she hadn't been weaned already as I was able to start milking her almost right away, but also am wondering if she is giving so little milk because the calf is older.

[AJ & Denise]

Mishy , Welcome , you will find a lot of good info here on this subject. Do you have the calf nearby when you milk ? It does take time for many Freshened cows to let down, What do you feed your Cow there ? This has a lot to do with production amount of Milk, we have Pasture and some grain ,Minerals. If you can increase some good quality alfalfa Hay with grain and Minerals , this would probably help. Also some separate the Calf , so The Cow can see the calf , but if you separate then you are saving more milk for yourselves. Best WIshes, and Enjoy this fine Group, AJ and Denise
PS if you can get a copy of Joann's Book , it has a lot of great info for your Cow needs.Please put up some Pics of your Island and Cow.

[mishy]

Thanks for the reply! She feeds all day on the ever growing grass and a mineral block.
I ordered the book last week- thanks. I think they ship it media so it is going to take a couple of months to get here. So meanwhile.....
This morning I got 4 cups. Pretty happy with that as it is double from a week ago! Hope it will double yet again this second week of milking!! Milked again with the calf sucking away.

[BissyAndBessie]

What are the specs on your machine?
What is the gauge set at? What is the CFM rating on your pump? What is the HP? What do you have the pulsations per min set at? Do the inflations fit well?
It is very bad to leave the milker on a cow who has no milk in her teat canals. It will damage them.
Strip her or hand milk till she lets down, then put the machine on.
What does the person who sold you the machine say?

[mishy]

Ok, good to know not to leave it on her. She milked fine- but no let down. Currently I am milking her by hand until she will let down for me....and build up her milk supply. Yesterday and today we got 4 cups.
I had the vacuum set on 14 and the inflations were working fine- seemd to fit. I don't know the answers to the rest of you things. Sorry! What is norm for the pulsator? I want to say it was clicking every second, or less. Never timed it to see.

[mishy]

PS. It is a Delaval milker.

[BissyAndBessie]

60 PPM is a good place to start. Time it.
There are several types of DeLaval milkers. Could I see a pix? Of the pulsator, claw and pump?
It will take about 1 to 2 min or less to milk our 4 cups of milk out of a cow with a machine.
It takes between 5 to 7 min on average to milk out 6 gallons or more.
If you are getting milk, what are you meaning when you say she isn't letting down?
Willie

[Lannie]

I only have experience with ONE cow, but I can see exactly what's happening. Those few cups you're getting are just what is sitting in the bottom of the udder. She is holding up ALL the rest, and if she's Holstein, it will be a considerable quantity. The calf is 5 months old and could easily be weaned by now. Is she eating hay? If so, and you don't mind milking twice a day, WEAN her. I'm going to wildly guess that the cow is making at least 4 or 5 gallons of milk every day (and maybe twice that), and the calf is taking it all.

No matter how long you leave the machine on (but as Willie said, you shouldn't), you can't suck out what she hasn't let down. You can't hand milk it out, either. Cows are very good at saving their milk for their babies. If you still want to use the calf to instigate letdown, put her on the cow for as long as it takes for the teats to fill up and expand with milk, then pull her off and tie her or put her in a stall or pen, and continue milking until the milk stops. Then do that again. You still won't get all the cream that way, but you should get most of the milk. After you wean the calf, and the cow understands there's no calf to feed, she'll let down for YOU, and you'll get all the milk and all the cream. Some cows take a few days to get to that point - mine took a full week, but she eventually figured out she had to let the milk go.

Even if you use the calf to get the cow to let down for now, they can be separated all day and all night, as long as the calf has some hay or grass, and water. Then milk twice a day. If you still want the calf to get a fair amount of milk, then let her nurse for several minutes before pulling her off. Or if you only want to milk once a day, separate them for the day OR the night, then put them together the rest of the time. But this way you'll still get milk. 4 cups from a Holstein! LOL! She's foolin' you big time! ;D

Good luck, and yes, I agree, pictures are NEEDED!

~Lannie

[mishy]

Willie, Yes 1-2 min was about it. What I mean about letting down is; I milk the little that is sitting in her udder, then I put the calf on her and she lets down, then I pull the calf off her and milk that out.
So, Lannie, she can do this let down thing a couple of times? Man, I feel so mean pulling the calf off her, but today was the second day I pulled the calf off and she gave only 3 cups of milk. It was also pouring rain and I have no shelter, so I called it a day after I wasn't getting much out. But if she can keep letting down, I bet she was holding back again. Stinkers.
Do you think leaving the calf on her will help me increase her milk production? My experience with milk is nursing my babies and if they require more, then I made more. So I am using that same logic that if I milk her and the calf also sucks, then it's gotta be telling her to to make more, right??? Currently I want her grass fed with no grain, but if that doesn't work, I'll look into grain. I only want like a gallon, something decent- I'm not looking for gallons and gallons in one day (although that would be nice). These cups are killing me and my kids. LOL
Can you please tell me what I am to do to wean the calf? If I do not let her on and I milk out that cup mama's got in her udder. What do I do next? Come back again in an hour, two hours, or what? I'd like to keep the once a day milking for now simply because there isn't anything at night. I tried once to milk her in the evening after the calf had been off her since 10 am. (tried milking at 5- so she was off her 7 hours) and there wasn't ANYTHING coming out and her bag was not bulging like in the morning- and by bulging I mean BARELY bulging. But maybe she was just holding whatever she had back??
So what is your opinion? I'll get more milk if I wean the calf, or I should keep the calf on so we are two who are demanding milk??
OK, tried up loading pics and was unsuccessful because they are too big. I know there must be a way to do it, but right now don't have the time to mess with it and my photo software isn't on this computer.
SO, to see pictures, go to cmphotocenter.com. Login with [e-mail] password is strykers I created this account for people to view soccer pictures, so now it has cow on there too. Just click on photos.
I have a pic of the pump and the milker with the claw- sorry forgot to take another with a view of the pulsator.
I took a pic of the whole cow, a pic of her udder about 10 in the morning, I think, so it gets just a wee bit bigger for the morning milking, but nothing like all yours probably do! lol. And it doesn't get bigger during the day (but the calf is with her all day).
I took a rear view of her cuz she is supposed to be preggers, due in March maybe? Can anyone tell this early?
So, Lannie, now that you have seen the pics of her udder, let me know if you still think she is fooling me big time. I'd be glad if she were, but I just don't think her bag is that big.....but then again hers is the first udder I have ever REALLY seen. But to be sure it ISN'T anywhere near like that cow's on the top of this page!! haha

[mishy]

Just to clarify- the evening I tried to milk, her bag was not bulging at all. When, in the morning, it is bulging a little, that is what I mean about "barely bulging". I should take a pic of her udder before I milk in the morning so you can see how small it is. Just a wee tighter looking than the pictures I put up at the photocenter.
Lannie, I separate the calf at about 4:30 and then milk at 7 am. The calf stays the whole day with her. The calf eats grass- no prob there. She is plenty old enough to wean. Just need to know how and if you think I can increase mama's supply without the help of the calf.
I hope I answered all the q's!! Trying to make sure I give you enough info so you can direct me! LOl
THANKS THANKS!!! So nice to have somewhere to turn to for help!

[Lannie]

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this, but I lost my old friend (my 29 year old TB mare) the other day, and I haven't been on the computer much. I'll get over it, but this hit me pretty hard, since it was unexpected.

I tried to go to the site you mentioned, but it uses an invalid security certificate, and I don't want to continue (I've had more than my fair share of worm/trojan/virus issues in the last few years, which has cost me two computers). So I didn't see your pictures. Sorry.

I suppose it's remotely possible that she truly doesn't have a lot of milk, but I really doubt that. She's evidently VERY good at holding up. Has she been used as a dairy cow before? I mean, is she used to being milked at all, or was she just used to raise calves? If it were me, I'd just wean the calf now. You'll have to physically separate them for a while, and make sure no nursing can be done through a fence. The cow will stubbornly hold her milk up for a while longer, thinking that eventually she'll be able to feed her calf again, but when it finally sinks in that's not going to happen, or she becomes so uncomfortably full she can't stand it anymore, she'll let down. That might be the only way you're going to get any milk for yourself and your family.

Are you planning on keeping the heifer? If not, see if you can sell her right away. The sooner she's out of the picture, the sooner the cow will let down for you. I was VERY fortunate that once I weaned Cricket, and she'd worn a weaning ring for a couple of months, she completely lost her desire to nurse. She never tried again, even after she got the weaning ring off. But I guess that doesn't happen very often, so that's why I said if you're not going to keep the heifer, to sell her now. If you ARE going to keep her, prepare to keep them separated for a long time, maybe forever. Later on, they can share a fenceline, but right at first, you don't want any possibility of nursing, until the heifer is weaned. Then keep an eye on her, and at the first sign of going back to nursing, separate them again, or use a weaning ring.

When Bandit's holding up, her udder isn't large at all. She usually lets me have the first skim milk, then it feels as if she's empty, and last year when I first started milking, she had me believing her. Then someone told me there was more, and to use the calf, so I did, and wouldn't you know, there was another gallon in there! One day I tried doing two calf-induced letdowns, and got even more. It stays up high in the udder UNTIL it's let down, then the lower udder fills, and the quarters and teats swell and get firm. But until she lets down, it's up high and you can't really tell it's there. So I think there's quite a bit more milk in your cow's udder that she's just not willing to share with you at this time.

If I forgot anything, please forgive me, I'm not quite back to myself yet.

~Lannie

[mishy]

Oh I am so sorry for your loss!!!
If you want to try the site again, make sure you have the www in from of the address, otherwise yes you get that security certificate notification.
Your cow holding up the milk HIGH is hopefully my case. This cow is about 4 years old. She is pregnant (hopefully) with her 3rd calf. So this one that she is nursing is her 2nd calf. People do not milk cows here at all. They are raised as a hobby and then sold for meat. So no she has never been milked before I got her. When I milked her the first time, I got 2 cups. Then the calf got with her and she wouldn't let her nurse at all- kept walking away and kicking the calf off. That was for half a week. After that she finally let the calf nurse. Also she started giving only 1 cup or 1.5 cups a day. That was with the milking machine. So she figured out in a day that she had to save, but also I think she started making a little more milk (at 5 mos I figure the calf wasn't demanding all that much from her since she is already eating grass). This past week (week 2), I have been doing as I mentioned and milking with the calf. When I pulled the calf off the cow the second day, the cow again held back because I could get 4 cups out of her while milking WITH the calf, but only 3 cups if I pulled the calf off. Today I will wean the calf- they are tied to trees. No fencing. Yea, a little different here. That is the primary way cows are kept. So there is no way they can access each other. That is how I have been doing it for the nights. Now I'll just leave the calf where she is.
I am going to keep the heifer. She is a beauty and that is hard to get here because cows are just raised for meat. A cowboy told me that she ought to be a good milker. I want two milking cows- and I have a ton of friends who want raw milk.

[Lannie]

OK, typing the www part worked. Weird! The pictures aren't very clear (too far away), but she does look like she has a little beefy udder, not a big dairy udder. Bandit's udder is about the same size, maybe slightly larger, and she's making 6 gallons a day right now. Last year, her udder was very small, and looked similar to what your cow's udder looks like, and she was making 3.5 to 4 gallons a day. However, one of the things I've learned here is that the size of the udder doesn't necessarily equate directly to the amount of milk. You can get a lot of milk out of a small udder, or a small amount of milk out of a large udder. I'd like to see the back of her udder better. In the one picture of the back her tail's in the way, but it doesn't look full. Either she IS drying herself off, or the calf is simply keeping her empty. It just seems odd to me that a cow would be drying herself up if she still had a 5 month old calf. My guess is (still) that she's holding up for the baby. Give it a few days, or as in my case, a week, but keep trying to milk her twice a day.

Since you don't have fences, you might want to invest in a weaning ring to put in the heifer's nose, just as extra insurance. Some calves are hard to wean, others are easy, but a little extra insurance never hurts.

Keep us posted with the results of your milking. I'm still not believing that any cow could have such a small amount of milk 5 months after calving. I'm hoping to see you posting soon telling us about how much milk you're now getting and what the heck are you supposed to DO with all of it!

~Lannie

[mishy]

Ha! Oh I so hope I will be posting that I am drowning in milk!! What a dream that would be!!
I'll make sure to remember to take some more pictures today for you. "beefy" udder, well I don't know what else is mixed in her blood! If you don't think that she would be drying herself off with a 5 month old calf that gives me hope! This morning she gave me 3.5 cups WITHOUT the calf!! That was a first, so I am pretty thrilled! and since I didn't put the calf on her- I know there has still gotta be at least that much in there.
Maybe the calf is older? I don't know how good of a record keeper this farmer was?? It just seemed crazy to me that she would kick off her calf those first times after I milked her with the machine? Why would she do that? I could only guess was that we got it all- a mere two cups. But that seems unbelievable even to me who doesn't know cows. LOL Also her udder has gotten bigger since we have been milking her. How old is a calf when the mom would naturally wean it? I'll take a pic of the calf to for you. She is soooo cute.

[mishy]

Also I'll try to change the setting on my camera so I can just post it on here.

[mishy]

her udder before milking

[mishy]

Thinkin' I don't need to explain this view.

[Tammy]

Hi Mishy,

Sorry you are having so much trouble getting milk from your girl. You have some experienced and sweet folks coaching you on this thread who have given you a lot of great advice. I just wanted to comment (although I know it's not what you are looking to hear and I hope I am wrong) that to me that looks like the udder of a cow that is drying herself off. Granted, I am use to Jersey udders but we also have a beef herd and I just don't think that udder is making much milk right now. Perhaps the "Island" genetics she has are more beef and she just is not going to produce more milk than what you are getting at this stage in her lactation. I DO hope I am wrong and hope someone jumps in here and tells us both that I am wrong.

It sounds like you are doing a great job with her. I wish you the best!

Tammy

[mishy]

Thanks Tammy,
Even if she were drying off because he calf wasn't needing milk anymore, isn't it possible for me to reverse that?