C 1 Considering cows - advice please

[Multi-taskingmom]

Hi folks - We drove 2 hours to look at cows today and I spent a wonderful afternoon walking through a field of cows. Some of the cows were eating, some were lazing around in a pile of hay...none of them ran from us or even acted disturbed at a strange woman and her daughter slogging through their pasture.

Ok so on to my questions. There was one cow that the owner (wonderful lady and very knowledgeable about cows) thought would be perfect for us. She's almost 3. She's milking now and due again in Sept. She is reported to be gentle and likes to take her time being milked. The thing is, of all the cows she seemed a bit standoffish. She actually half pushed her head at me...it wasn't a butt really, but more of a push. She was eating and maybe that was it. Even when she was done, she just kind of went off and laid down. I guess you could say we didn't really hit it off. She's really thrifty and has a good udder. The owner thinks she would make a great family milk cow. She said she thinks it would work out once we got her home.

Many of the other cows came up and asked for attention. In fact I felt something at the back of my jacket and it was a cow licking me. She continued to lick me as I scratched her, then she gave me a big wet kiss across the face. Can you see where this is going? Well the thing is, the lady might consider selling this cow, but she has a twisted foot. The owner said this was caused by improper nutrition while a calf. I think she said something about the kind of grain she fed her. The other thing and this is really where my question comes in...she cut one of her teats last year, and when she comes in to be milked, it sometimes leaks. I think she said it was just more open than it should be. My question....how big a problem will this cause. How much more likely will she be to get infection, contamination, mastitis?

This lady doesn't have cows for sale so to speak, there are some that she would never consider selling and then there are a few that given the right circumstance she would consider selling. She is an amazing wealth of information, and I look forward to knowing her even if we do not end up with one of her cows.

Which cow would you consider buying. Would you go with the one that seemed to say over here, pick me and gave you a big wet one across the face, even though she has some potential issues, or would you go with the owners suggestion and take the one that you didn't really hit it off with at first glance. Or would you keep looking?

Sorry this has gotten so long,
Thank you,
Marsha

[suzorse]

I went and looked at jerseys when I bought my Cana she is not the cow I went to look at
almost all of the cows were friendly I was looking at an older cow that was so sweet
and then after looking at some heifers the gals mom pointed out Cana and said she is a little standoffish but she is my favorite cow and would make a good family cow never had mastitis or milk fever and was a little on the porky side she was open and just under 60 days fresh
as I had Marie who could be a bully and pain but came in to be milked and was great I decided Cana would be a better match for Marie's temperament I have never been sorry I picked Cana she is a sweet cow I can walk up to her anywhere even her former owner said
she was not as standoffish as she was ,and enjoyed seeing her a few months back .so I would not say do not pick the cow that is standoffish, do you have to go catch your cow every day to bring them in for milking or are you set up like me I only have to open a gate and they walk right in to my milk stall, and I snap a lead tied in there to the halter and milk , unfasten that cow back her out and then let the next one in so it did not matter to me , she was halter broke already so look at your situation and decided Suzanne

[donahue12inchrist]

Hi Marsha,

Not to sound contradictory, but if this is your first cow, I would not, not, not choose a cow with an obvious potential, SERIOUS issue.

As to the other cow, if you wait, one you feel is the cow for you will come along. Just like husbands, the good one is worth the wait ;D.

Stephanie

[jehuchris]

I would encourage you to make another trip or two to this same place. She was in the herd and her attitude could very well have been, herd structure or heirarchy reactions. I would ask to see the cow when she was NOT with the herd and see the lady handle her with you standing back out of the way. This will give you an idea of how she reacts to people she is accustomed to being around.

We sold a cow this week and when the couple came to pick her up I had them come out to the enclosure knowing the cow would not cooperate because when "new" people come around she gets very standoffish. I walked up to her in the corral several times and she'd walk off. I walked back to her and she'd walk off. I'd rub her flank and her side and she'd walk off. After 3 to 5 minutes, she calmed down and I rubbed her head and put a lead rope on her and led her up towards the barn and at one point she stopped because the "new" people were standing beside the gate. I waited and she walked a little futher. Then I said, "now I'm going to get her to come inside the barn." Hannah brought out a scoop of food and waah laah she forgot there was another person on earth. Followed me right into the barn and walked right up on the stanchion. I groomed her all over as she ate. Rubbed her udder and teats and then let them touch her and talk to her. Between her chewing and her eyes rolling back in her head from the shear food ecstacy, she didn't know they existed.

When it came time to load onto their smallish (not too small) trailer, same scenario. They stood right by the open trailer door. She walked up to the trailer she'd put a foot up on it and back off. Walk up to the rear and look in but not load. Gave her several minutes then said, ok, now we're going to load her." Got a little grain and she hopped on the trailer like you'd hit her with a hot-stick. The young man said, "you knew all along how to get her in the barn and on the trailer. Why didn't you just take food out with you to begin with?" I said because you'd have gotten home and she'd have refused to do something and you'd not have the confidence that with some patients and kind persistence you can do this-cow-thing.

So I'd encourage you to see her worked alone. She how she responds to rewards and probably see that the lady who owns her really does know more about her cow than we who are sitting here in cyber pasture.

Blessings on finding the best cow for you and your family,

Chris

[liveoak]

The part I like about your seller is that she is knowledgeable and sounds like she would be supportive of your future questions as they arise. I think that having her as a resource, from a buyer's standpoint may help you down the road. That part I like.
It would be much better if she were closer than 2 hours away, but at least she's not any further.
MOST cattle sales are without any guarantee, and once the cow leaves the property, there is no further relationship between buyer and seller. I think that dealing with this particular seller may be different just from your description......because it sounds like she cares, and will be there to answer questions down the road. THAT is worth A LOT in purchase price.
I have not found any sellers like that around here. Most are cattle "traders" just interested in selling you something which they know very little about and they expect you to take it from there, without any more question/answer opportunity.
Worse yet is the auction where you had better know what you are looking at and how to evaluate it properly.
I am new to cows but have extensive horse experience. I have TONS of questions, most of which I have brought here. Stick around and read a while. Learn more about how to evaluate udder conformation.....I have read back about 50 pages worth on this board! It will definitely help you feel more confident about buying!

[Multi-taskingmom]

This lady is an amazing wealth of knowledge. Even if we don't end up getting a cow from her I think she would be a resource for us. I had thought we had found a cow on this board, but that fell through. Even then she offered her services as a mentor.

I guess what I am expecting in finding a cow is that I will know her when I see her. Maybe that doesn't happen with cows?

I do trust this lady, she has been around cows her whole life. She thinks Dorothy is the one. She asked if I would like to try her. 2 hours one way is a long way but not as bad as it could be.

This will be our very first cow and I am hoping to get a cow that we can keep for a lifetime. I want a pet that gives milk. Is that possible?

Maybe we should see if we could go during milking time and try her, though that would be asking a lot I think. This lady has many cows so it might not work for her to have a bunch of strangers standing around while she tries to get the job done.

There is another cow we could consider. I have not seen her, she is 5 and bred to a bull of uncertain breed. She had been with 2 diff. bulls. One I believe is a Holstein, the other not sure. She is a registered Jersey and came from a good dairy. I know she has been hand milked by the family who has her now. But she has not been well cared for. They apparently did not have the best hay and could not afford grain this winter so her production was way down, and they dried her off. I think she is about 5 months bred, they had her vet checked about a month ago and he figured she was about 4 months ago.

I think she has not had the best of lives recently and we have not gone to look at her as I don't want to get this families hopes up.

On the one hand, I feel like maybe the poor girl could have a good life with us albeit that we are brand new to the cow world. On the other hand, I don't want to buy someone elses problem. How could one tell if a cow had had mastitis if the cow was dry?

What kind of problems would we potentially look for in a cow that has not had the proper nutrition. Is this a cow we should run away from. What about if she is bred to a much larger bull?

No time to proof this - hope it all makes sense.

Thank you everyone for your advice thus far.

Marsha

[Janene]

Take your trailer and go back and look at both cows again. The gal is being honest with you, and if you get one of her cows, it will further cement the relationship/mentoring you two have.

Pick a cow after looking, handling and messing with them. I think the seller has picked the younger one because it would be a good fit for your situation--priceless help/advice for a new person to the milking cow world.

My cow is a pet that gets milked (more or less) but even as friendly as she is, when strange people are around and she's in the pasture, she will be stand-offish at first, too.
Janene

[liveoak]

Take my example. I am a newbie with the dairy cow thing and I bought my first jersey last Tuesday. She is young too, and has 2 nurse calves. She had apparently never worn a halter or experienced touching anywhere forward of the flank area. Today, I am leading her pretty darn well with halter and rope, and brushing her EVERYWHERE. She found out she liked head brushes on her topknot and under the throat. The pivotal moment was when she sniffed me all over, and then licked my face. Now I get a face washing after every episode before I turn her back out. I still have the halter and rope dragging along, just in case. But we have come MILES just since tuesday.
From what I can tell, cows distrust people who smell different than "their" people, just like they might do for cows that aren't in "their" herd family. Cows have a phenomenal sense of smell. Once she smells you up and accepts you, it should be smooth sailing. That will take a couple days of intense interaction and working with her together she will accept you and settle down.
Be prepared: the move will upset her world and this may disrupt the progress. I say go back over there and spend 4 hours with her 2 more times (like say 2 days in a row) and then move her. This MIGHT help her move better and also give you more confidence that she is right for you.,

[lsg]

I would start off with a healthy cow. It doesn't pay to start your milking experience with a cow that has health problems. Two of my cows are gentle as lambs with me, but do not like strangers. My brindle cow doesn't even like DH. So the cow that seemed standoffish, may just be a little shy with strangers. Once she gets to know you, she may be just what you need.
I agree with the others that you need to go back a couple more times to visit with the lady and her cows. Don't be in such a hurry that you make a choice you will regret. Happy cow hunting.

[hafnhaf]

I agree with Janene. If you trust this woman, and it sounds like you have every reason to, I would go back and fool with that cow more. We are in the same situation, almost. Our first cow, Mookie, I feel in love with but she has been a real stinker. Knowing what I know now, I would have done things differently when we went to see her and would have left her there. We just brought a new cow home yesterday, having a choice of two. I asked the farmer which he would pick, and he chose the one I got, even though the other cost more and we would have paid it. There was more discussion than that, but you get the idea. So far I am pleased with her go-along attitude, she seems willing to figure things out and remains pretty calm when being introduced to new situations.
Good luck and whatever you choose, of course post some pics!!!!!!
Laurie

[crowinghen]

I think that you should really consider the advice that the seller is giving you and think about the first cow... the second cow sounds like it has too many issues. Not that you should buy her based on the seller's opinion only, but she's the one that knows the cows and that cow is the one that she felt would work for you--- I would not buy a cow that has a leaking teat-- too big of a chance of mastitis.
If I didn;t want to go with the first cow, i would go take a look at the other people's cow.
I agree that maybe you should go back and re-evaulate... it's amazing how different it can be the second visit. Plus it is true that once you get her home and start bonding it will be different-- most cows really are a bit freaked out by strangers.

Good luck with your decision!
susie

[jerseylovinliz]

My favorite favorite cow we have is very standoffish towards new people. I'd go back, take a lawn chair & just sit & 'be' w/them (or ideally her in a separate pen if that's an option) for a decent ammount of time not just 5 minutes. Standoffish in a herd setting wouldn't bother me a bit. You can always gentle a cow, you can't nec. fix the health issues w/cow #2. One thing to think of is resale... I hate to make it about money but let's say something happens & you HAVE to sell your baby. It'd be much easier to sell a cow that doesn't have the health issues.

Time & trust is all she probably needs. When she realizes it's you bringing her scrumptuous food & you who if she's being a PIA can just as quickly take it away she'll love you like you wouldn't believe. My doll Amber will NOT let anyone grab her halter but me. I can get her (very easily-I just say come here love & she comes a-runnin) & then hand her off.

My Jersey's LOVE their head, I call them nobs, to be scratched. She could have been looking for a scratch or she could just be establishing pecking order. A quick pop on the nose & a stern no if she does it again will most likely squelch that (if she's trying to push you around). I use the word easy w/all my cows. If they are getting too pushy they get 2 easy's & then it's goodbye for now w/their treats. BUT I know they KNOW I'm in charge.

If it were me personally I'd take standoffish over potential health issue. You then have to think about infections, calf problems w/nursing & a mirriad of other issues. W/that being said I am a FIRM believer in listening to my gut as well. If Jersey #1 doesn't sit right in your gut I'd keep looking. One big turn off to me personally is horns, do any/all have horns? Does that bother you? They don't have to be a mean cow to hurt you w/those horns...

Option #3 sounds fairly good to me as well. Assuming you like everything about her I wouldn't worry too too much about food shortage here lately. She's still got a few months to go in her preg you could slowly build her back up to a healthy weight before calving. 3rd trim is when good nutrition is soo important.

Sorry so long. They're a big investment & a lot to think about. Hopefully y'all will find the perfect fit for your family. We looked for 17 months before we found our dream girl (that was calling about EVERY one for sale & driving ALL over the place looking at anything & everything). I'm glad we waited every day when I milk her!

Good luck!

[Lannie]

I'm going to agree with everyone else. Take the one the seller is recommending. Once she gets used to you, I'm sure she'll be fine. Bandit is one of those "back pocket" cows - she's in my space all the time, wanting pets and scritches and just general attention, but only me. She'll let Rich pet her, but on the couple of occasions that he's tried to milk her for me, she won't let down for him. And she absolutely spooks when she sees someone she doesn't know. I've had people come over and they think she's wild, but she's not at all, she's just wary of strangers. Once she gets to KNOW someone, then she's fine with them, but she and I have a special bond, and I think you and this new cow can forge a bond, too. Trust the advice of the seller. She sounds like a very nice person and I don't think she'd try to steer you wrong, especially if you will be staying in contact with her afterward.

~Lannie

[Claire]

I've got another back-pocket cow. When we looked at her at the dairy we couldn't get any closer than 20ish feet and the first weeks here she was very standoffish. Now I can literally crawl under her and hang off her and one of my favorite ways to end the evening is to lean against her shoulder and watch the sun set. Behavior in a herd with strangers can be very different from how she will be with you at home after she settles in.

[rainyclayday]

I almost did not buy my first cow because when we went to see her she had to be "caught" and didn't come to us. I was brand new to cows and expected the cow to be like a horse. I have plenty of experience with horses! So when we got there and she would not even come to us, I was telling my husband to forget about it. But we ended up buying her. I expected that she would continue this behavior at home but next thing I knew, hubby had the cow leading her around, brushing her, etc the next morning. She turned out to be a wonderful cow and to think I might not have bought her due to her reaction to "new people."

I think if I were you, given that this seems to be a trustworthy person, I would go with her advice. It seems as though she has your best interest at heart.

Good luck! Let us know what happens.

[liveoak]

Marsha,
I re-read your post about the third cow for sale from the family that needs to sell her. I don't perceive from your testimony that this family is as good a resource for you over the longterm, from a learning standpoint. Maybe I am wrong? Also a cow in thin condition could be trouble (biggest concern is diseases that never go away and spread to other animals).
When my cow arrived last Tuesday she was a jumpy frightened wreck. I thought oh brother what have I done, she hates me and she's not people friendly. I have since then trained her to accept and even enjoy being brushed, and handled. It would be hard to do this, I think, with a cow that has any age on it. My girl is between 2 and 3.
At times I have had to force Fiona to see it my way. Now that we have gotten past the initial challenges of haltering, stop when I say stop, come hither when I pull on the rope, and such......she is doing great. She just needed to figure out what the routine would be. But you have to be demanding. We do things MY way because I'm the mother and I said so. Period. Fiona lets me be boss cow so the matter was settled.
I would NOT recommend getting a flighty cow that spins and runs away with a snort, or one that is sooo friendly (spoiled) that it bullies you. You really do want a little bit of healthy respect/fear because pushiness can get you hurt. I have a pushy hereford cow that would knock me over to get a cube out of my pocket. She has no healthy fear of humans, and has become too comfortable with getting her way. I pop her on the end of the nose with a stick and toss the cubes at her from a distance! Go fetch!

[briarrose]

You've gotten a lot of really good advice here. The cow atitude issues are all covered nicely so let me put some emphasis on the friendly cow with bag and leg issues.
I rescue handicapped cows. A cow with a crippled leg can turn into a very high maintaince cow as she gets older. Mine and I have 3 with leg issues 1 is minamal 1 is extreme and 1 is middle of the road maintaince. The 2 with crippled back legs need constant attention to their hooves. It's almost a weekly battle because the hooves on the bad legs grow very rapidly and crooked so they have to be trimmed up constantly. This is something I have had to do since they were babies. One is 3 and the other is 6. I do all of this myself and let me tell you it's not always fun.
As far as the bag is concerned, I wouldn't even go there, and I've delt with milk cows for over 40 years. There are so many problems that you could end up with. There are plenty of things that can go wrong with a healthy bag, let alone a bag that already has problems.
All of my younger heifers although I hang on them constantly are shy with strangers. Using patience in making your choice will reward you for years to come. Good luck and happy hunting.
Kristy

[Multi-taskingmom]

Thank you everybody. I just talked to the owner - she is such an amazing lady. We are going to consider the cow she recommends. She also said we should go and get the other cow to save it.

I called the dairy that sold it (cow number 3 in my post above) to these people and she was a nice cow, halter trained and shown the other people have had it less than a year and basically it is probably starving.

She is dry, so we could bring her home right away and keep her at our neighbors barn - he has been offering us this option for awhile, but I didn't want to put a lactating cow there because I didn't want to have to drive over twice a day to milk her.

We are hoping to get our barn built or at least started in May.

Will keep everyone posted and will of course post pictures of the cows when we get them.

Marsha
PS: DH says we should go for both of them.

[donahue12inchrist]

Mar 21, 2010 20:09:28 GMT -5 Multi-taskingmom said:

Thank you everybody. I just talked to the owner - she is such an amazing lady. We are going to consider the cow she recommends. She also said we should go and get the other cow to save it.

I dearly appreciate this gal being willing to be your mentor through your journey, but she, with her experience, would be in a better position to save this cow.

You are very wise not to want someone else's problems, but if the cow tests neg. for Johne's and BLV, it may just need some fattening up.

The cold hard fact is Johne's is a wasting disease and a cow will not gain weight no matter how well she is fed because her body cannot assimilate the food. Johne's cows also contaminate your property for several years.

As far as your concern about it's mastitis history, they should be able to fill you in on that.

Stephanie

[Multi-taskingmom]

Thank you - we would have a thorough vet check done if we consider cow number 3. We have not gone to see her yet as I know what will happen if we do.



Marsha