Is this founder?

[Lannie]

Boy, I feel pretty stupid, having had horses for so much of my life, and never having this situation come up before. I'm not even sure it IS a situation, but I thought I'd get some opinions.

Wind, our QH mare, was kind of favoring one leg last night. I checked her foot and there was nothing in her hoof, and there were no swollen or hot spots anywhere up or down her leg (it was her left front). I figured maybe she'd pulled a muscle or twisted something.

For three of the past four days, we've been letting the horses out into the "rest of the property" so they can help keep the grass down, since Rich hasn't been able to mow for so long. I put them back in the pasture at night, then let them out for the day. This morning, when Wind came out, she wasn't favoring her leg at all, which confirmed my suspicion that she'd just pulled something, but just a few minutes ago, I watched her walk across the driveway, which is mostly hard dirt with a little bit of small gravel on it, and she seemed to be sore in BOTH front feet. She was walking very gingerly, but once across the driveway and back onto the grass again, she seemed fine. Horus isn't having any problems walking on the driveway, and I don't recall that Wind did, either, until just today.

So now I'm worried that she might have foundered (?). I'm not sure exactly what causes it, so I did an internet search and of all the possible causes, the only one that might fit would be "lush pasture." But it's not that lush, and it's basically the same stuff that's in the pasture, so I don't know.

Do you think she might have gotten stone bruises on both front feet at the same time? There are a few larger stones in the small gravel. There are no stones in her feet at the moment, and no foreign objects at all that I can see. She didn't seem to be sore on her hind feet, just the fronts. She's a very tall horse, in excess of 17 hands, but she's not at all overweight, and is in very good shape. She's probably about 22 years old now, I'm not exactly sure (but that would be close).

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I'm all ears.

~Lannie

[cccjerseys]

Founder typically starts in the frount feet. I am guessing that is what you are dealing with. This time of year is bad for founder second only to spring.
At 22years old your horse may developing Cushings Disease. Is she kinda slow to shed in the spring? Does she have any wavy hair on her legs or body when winter coat is on?Cushing's causes founder (or is a symptom)
Sorry I don't sound any more positive.
Could be bruises but I don't think so. Get her off of the good pasture right away and on dry hay if you don't want it to get worse
Shirla

[Becky]

It *could* be founder as, like Shirla said, it usually afflicts front feet first. Normally it is fairly uncommon in the hind simply because horses carry 70% of their weight on the front.
She could also simply be tender footed on the gravel, also.

Check for heat in the hoof itself, and check the digital pulse. If you have laminitis setting in, you *should* have an elevation in one or the other, or both.

When she is walking, is she seeming to go "toe first", or walking on egg shells? Have Rich walk her out on as flat of a surface as you can and see if she "flips" her feet. If she is "flipping" that is a sign of a rotated coffin bone (founder). If she is going toe first, or the egg shell thing that is an indicator of navicular disease. At her age, the QH blood, and large size, it *could* be the beginnings of navicular. Really, the only way to diagnose either one would be a vet, or you can sweet talk your farrier into putting the hoof testers on her and get his opinion.

Or it could be nothing at all except she stubbed her toe Which is what i am rooting for....

Becky

[Lannie]

No, she doesn't have any of the Cushing's symptoms. All our grass is the same, inside and out of their "pasture area." So she's eating the same stuff that she was last week. Unfortunately, we don't have enough hay to feed her hay (we don't get our hay until late September or early October), and I don't have a dry lot to confine her to even if we did. There's grass everywhere. I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on her. I don't know what else to do at this point.

~Lannie

[missevelyn]

A slower method is to watch her hooves for horizontal rings, I can tell in the spring here when the grass 'pops' by the growth rings in the horses hooves. Everybody else is right, nothing much to do except keep an eye on her. Not my favorite method of treatment.

Regina

[cccjerseys]

While all your grass maybe the same it doesn't grow the same thru the season.
I know you said that it was "big" grass pasture but one of the worst to make founder is short buffalo grass with a big rain on it. That will ruin a pony in one day.
The other thought is... Is she sore from the grass rasping her toes off.
Buffalo grass will do that as well.
Shirla

[Lannie]

We do have a couple of patches of buffalo grass (I THINK that's what it is), but it's so short I doubt they've even seen it. I don't think her hooves have been rasped - they've only been in the yard for 3 days, but as I said, it's the same as the pasture. We have a 15-acre plot of mixed grass and weeds. There's a perimeter fence around the whole thing, then we have some cross fencing to denote separate pastures from the rest of the property. The grass is all the same - native prairie.

All the same, I guess I'll keep them in the pasture from now on. The grass outside the pasture really needs to be cut, but I guess we can look like trailer trash for a couple more weeks. After that, Rich can ride the mower again and spiff the place up some. I was just thinking I could use the horses in the meantime to maybe shorten the grass up a bit, but I guess it wasn't a great idea in the first place. I'm always about saving something, and this way I thought I could save some of the pasture for later in the season, if they could come out and eat what would normally get mowed.

Oh, well...

~Lannie

[cccjerseys]

Was she out on pasture a long time and just now came to the yard with the rocks?
That is kinda what I am hearing now. She just has soft feet from not having rocks before.
I am pretty sure of that now. Pasture horses will show pretty ouchy the first few weeks on hard surface. And really bad if it was wet before. As long a the limb is mostly on the hard surface and not the soft grass.
All sounds okay now. Sorry about the negative response before I should have read more.
Shirla

[marseydoats]

You can paint the soles of her feet with venice turpentine and that will help if she's just stone bruised, and not hurt if she's starting to founder. Hope she's ok!

[Lannie]

Well, she's confined back to the pasture now. Yes, Shirla, what you said is correct. She's been on pasture all the time, and it was just the last few days that we had let them out to eat some of the grass outside the pasture. The driveway runs right down the center of the rest of the property, so she crossed it many times during the day. The reason I was worried was that it seemed to be only her front feet that were sore. I couldn't detect anything wrong with her stride on the hind feet.

When we put them back in the pasture last night, she trotted across the big common grassy area, so it seems like it's not anything more than tender feet, but we'll keep them in the pasture from now on, I guess, just to be safe. I was just hoping to extend the grazing season, since we had the longer grass in the yard from Rich not mowing for the last month. At least when they're in the pasture, I don't have to keep hauling buckets of water out to them. I couldn't just leave the gate open because I didn't want Seven (he's in the horse pasture) pooping all over the place. The road apples are bad enough to clean up. So he had the entire pasture and the trough all to himself, and I was filling a 5 gallon bucket for the horses several times a day while they were out in the "yard." It's been hot, so it seemed I was constantly filling that blasted bucket.

~Lannie

[cccjerseys]

Wheeph! So glad. She will be sore up frount cause of the weight being more up frount.
Mine do that alot and it is really hard to convince someone that she isn't lame just tender.
So glad it wasn't founder.

[Lannie]

I was just talking to our mail lady, and she said her horses do this all the time when it's dry. Just on their front feet. But she said it's not founder. So I guess, if it's NOT founder, can I let them back out into the yard? There's still a lot of stuff they could be eating. I don't want to put her at risk, but if there's no reason not to, I'd sure like to let them continue mowing. We haven't had a whole lot of rain in the last couple of weeks, and I always worry we'll run out of pasture before we get our hay in. I'd like to let them have at the yard before Rich gets cleared to go back to work, because then he'll mow it all short. I'm willing to keep filling the bucket if it will save us some stress over pasture/hay availability later.

When I went out to look for eggs a little while ago, they BOTH followed me back to the corral gate, wanting out.

What do you think?

~Lannie

[Becky]

Personally, I would let them out. If it is the same type of grass then it would be 6 of 1, half dozen of the other if they were out or in the pasture. But that is just me

Becky

[cccjerseys]

I'd let them out. They will toughen up. Within a day or two won't limp.

[Lannie]

They're back out. Boy, are they happy!

~Lannie

[Lannie]

Aug 9, 2010 14:00:32 GMT -5 Becky said:

or you can sweet talk your farrier into putting the hoof testers on her and get his opinion.

I don't know why, but I missed that whole post of yours, Becky. I had to giggle at the "your farrier" line! LOL! There ARE no farriers here, so that makes Rich and me the Official Farriers of Love Acres. I don't have those pincer things, but even if I did, I wouldn't know what was normal and what wasn't. There was no heat at all, though, that I DID check. No swelling, either. So as usual, I obviously overreacted.

~Lannie

[marseydoats]

I don't know why, but I missed that whole post of yours, Becky. I had to giggle at the "your farrier" line! LOL! There ARE no farriers here, so that makes Rich and me the Official Farriers of Love Acres. I don't have those pincer things, but even if I did, I wouldn't know what was normal and what wasn't. There was no heat at all, though, that I DID check. No swelling, either. So as usual, I obviously overreacted.

~Lannie[/quote]


Better safe than sorry! beleive me, founder is something you do not want to deal with!

[tassie]

hey I just saw this.....doesn't sound like laminitis to me and I had a pony that was really prone. You would certainly get heat in the hoof itself and it's quite distinct. Also she would stand with the weight on her back legs and her front legs slightly out in front of her to ease the pain/discomfort.

The mysteries of founder are even more fascinating than milk fever and, similarly, it's all in the metabolism. If i kept my pony on native , unimproved pasture she could get as fat as a pig and not founder (like, massive crest and blobs of fat like tennis balls), but the moment she was on improved pasture she'd get sore and lame. One of my old farriers used to drench with epsom salts at the onset of an attack and this would stop it getting full blown.

Anyway, you already know she's OK so this is quite redundant

Trina, retrospectively useless

[Lannie]

Oh, Trina, I love you, you're NEVER useless! I'll file that epsom salts tip away in a dusty corner of my brain in case I ever need it. You never know. Thanks!

~Lannie

[Lannie]

Huh. You guys were right. She just had a serious case of tender feet. I just watched her walk up the driveway and she was fine. She was walking slow (but it's hot, so that's understandable), but I saw no sign of limping.

~Lannie