an old fella up the road told my husband that we should not casterate the new calf cause when he is around 9months old her will have her pregnant again...are there any issues with a male calf getting his mother pregnant??
if he was to impregnate her and she fell preg it would only be 9months from her birthing him..is that too close between pregnancies? thanks for any help
In-Breeding not a good idea.Calf could be born with serious defect & be sickly.I f a heifer calf, would be no good to keep for breeding as can pass on these defects to her calves.Much preferable to find another bull.Yes,offspring would be able to breed with her at 9 months.Much better to steer him & eat him!You should get her pregnant again in the next 3 months;a calf every 12 months is ideal.She will start cycling in the next few days to 2-3 weeks.
My cows are bred to have a calf every March-- granted mine have been beef cows but i would think if they are dried off on schedule and in good condition , there's no issue. As far as the mating of a bull to it's mother I wouldn't think it'd be a problem unless it was done over and over. Need to throw some new genetics in there at some point. There's a herd of cows up the road from me that started out just a cow and a bull. Now there's about 5 animals in there and it looks like they're just left to themselves as far as breeding ( same bull and cow and now their offspring) seems to be working out ok for them so far.
It really depends on what you would use the calf for. If all you want is the cow freshened and will butcher the offspring no matter the sex, then there is no good reason not to.
If however, you intend to keep heifers, then inbreeding should be confined to really good bloodlines that have been proven to not carry detrimental recessive genes.
The other thing to think about is that the young bull won't be able to settle the cow until he's that 9 months or so, giving you an 18 month calving interval. For some folks that's fine, but others don't like to have their cow open that long and want their cow to calve on a yearly schedule.
Post by buxombeefcowdairy on Jan 2, 2010 17:40:21 GMT -5
I can think of one reason you might not want to breed a calf to his mama, and that is an effect of the inbreeding: embryo survivability will be lower, giving you a much higher chance of embryonic death or abortion a little later on. This would mean the cow is not going to have a calf for an extra few months, if she takes time to come into heat again after losing a pregnancy. Any resulting surviving calf could have lower survivability or growth traits. There's your risk.
But then again, the calf might be just fine. We've had accidental bull-mother matings (when we kept an exceptional bull to use after AI, and the cow didn't settle AI but got bred to her son) as well as accidental sire-daughter matings (a Bando daughter, bred back to Bando) and had both normal bulls that went on to sell in our bull sale as well as cows that stayed in the herd, producing nice bulls. One of our best-looking bulls from two years ago was the result of a bull breeding his grandmother. The joke is, if you do it on purpose, it's 'linebreeding' but if it was a mistake, it's in-breeding.
And AnnB is right, if the calf is 9 months old when he breeds his mama, she is pregnant for 9 more months making it an 18 month calving interval.
If there's any way possible to AI breed, or a nice (healthy) neighbor's bull to borrow, you would do better to skip the whole-bull-in-your-backyard business.
199 Angus Beef cows, 1 Jersey cow 3 horses One Border Collie
my cow Marie is a mother son breeding, it was done on purpose as where her mother is there are no AI tecs anymore, he was kept for 2 breeding seasons and then went to freezer camp both calves were heifers , Suzanne
2 children Steven and Leila permitted 006 RCM Dairy Paprika 3/4 Jersey 1/4 Highland/Angus/Herford 2018 heifer Lillie the Holstein 2018 Cookie 3/4 jersey 1/4 Hereford 2017 Emmy a Galiceno pony Tonta the rescue Mustang pony some goats and the ever changing bottle calves
*Disclaimer* I kow nothing about cows and all the terminolgy used so please bare with me When you say keeping a cow open..is that a problem and why?
our cow that has just birthed is only now 19 months old which means she was impregnanted at 10month old ( we bought her pregnant) she was also AI'ed at a odd time for our seasons here in australia..she has just birthed(23rd Dec) which is super hot here so we would like to wait till June/July to have her preg again...so she would be 6months "open".. we are concerned that her being so young and having calves close might cause her concerns( we don't know that it would ,just we don't know about these things) I understand that others have different needs to us..ie: running a productive dairy for fincial reasons..but its not like that for us.. if it is better for her health to be open a little longer and go without milk we are happy to wait... I would prefer to run her ona natural schedule...meaning if a cow naturally weans her baby at oh lets say 6 months old then i'd like to let her naturally wean the calf herself, then have her AI'ed in amonth that was better to suit the seasons..
Lots of people say loads of things we are just trying to sort thru that whys and wherefores and make descions that best suit our cow.. we apprreciate all the help we get here on the forums
Hello Farmgirl67, Yes, its a steep learning curve isn't it? Don't worry, you'll get there! Yes, being in Northern NSW, I understand how hot our summers are! Ideally, spring calvings are good, because all that lovely fresh grass is just what you need for her to produce that great first flush of milk. My girl calved in Autumn and was at peak production in the dead of winter, and I was pouring food into her and money out of my wallet just to meet her nutritional requirements. The Tree of Knowledge on this site is a wonderful tool, so next time you have time (ha ha), and don't need to go to bed early, you should have a sift through it. Cows are generally dried off for two months before the next calving, (see Tree of Knowledge for all the reasons why), and so, with a longer lactation, her body is producing milk for longer. However, in a young healthy cow, an 18 month calving interval isn't too long. I have read on this board that the older the cow gets, the better it is to just keep her calving regularly, (akin to keeping an old car engine working, rather than letting it sit in the garage and then finding out its packed it in from lack of use). As far as letting the cow wean the calf itself.... she will probably continue to feed her for as long as you let her do so. I weaned our heifer calf at seven and a half months, as I share milked, and she was integral to how I got the let down, and allowed me to have a morning off every week. However, if I hadn't weaned her by separating her out of the paddock, I'm sure she would've happily shared with the new calf that's due in February! Bye for now and Happy New Year! H
As your cow was very young when she calved it would be a good idea to let her have a much longer calving interval.It will let her grow a bit more.I also agree with Heidi,Brie would probably feed her calf until he is 18 months old.We have a neighbour that has an angus cow with a feeding 2 year old "calf"!I still think it is very possible you could end up with a "problem" calf if you mate son to mum.I have seen it with cattle,sheep& goats;born undersized,& have health problems,even can end up dying from pneumonia & the like. I have had cows for 30 years but I am still learning,you never stop learning actually!I currently have 1 dairy cow still feeding her 12 month old calf,she doesnt calve again for 6 months.
Gosh, people have such terrible misconceptions about inbreeding! These are animals, it's not incest, and there shouldn't be such negativity about it. Inbreeding is a useful tool in any breeding program.
Inbreeding doesn't *cause* anything at all -- it only allows what's there to come out. Like genes pair up, become pure, and are expressed.. If you end up with a "problem" calf, it was not *caused* by inbreeding -- the genes were there anyway and the trait would have come out sooner or later, inbreeding just brings it out sooner. It works both ways, good genes pair up & become pure as well as bad genes pair up & become pure. The thing to remember is that if *something* shows up -- BOTH parents carried the gene. In a properly run inbreeding program, any animal expressing an undesirable trait would be culled, as would both parents.
A properly run inbreeding program provides consistency in the offspring, through an inbreeding program you can produce animals that are very genetically close to each other. Out-crossing provides no consistency due to breeding animals that are too dissimilar -- the good traits are diluted.
The other aspect that has to be looked at when breeding, inbreeding or otherwise, is the "X" chromosome. Female traits are carried on the "X" chromosome. A cow gives an "X" to both sexes of her offspring, but a bull only gives his "X" to his daughter. A bull cannot give his "X" to his son, so he cannot pass his mother's female traits to his son. When mating a son with his mother, you are basically recreating the mother through the "X" chromosomes. The only female traits that go into the resulting heifer calf are the mother's, from her own and through her son's "X" chromosome. In the early days of the Jersey breed, they concentrated on the "X" chromosome. Unbroken females lines, using sons and grandsons and sister's sons as sires to maintain that "X" chromosome. Some of the absolute best Jerseys to ever live were produced in this manner.
But in modern times breeders don't want to take the time necessary to implement a good inbreeding program, plus they don't want to run the risk of exposing that their stock may already have detrimental genes, so today out-crossing is what's in vogue. But it doesn't change the fact that every breed was created by inbreeding. The Jersey breed as a whole is very inbred, no matter what AJCA says -- practically every standard Jersey in the US traces back to one of 3 cows (Coomassie, Sultana, and her daughter Oxford Lass).
Buxom had commented about what they refer to as "inbreeding depression", but studies/trials have shown that when full-sibling matings were carried on over 25 generations, there were absolutely no signs of anything remotely similar to "inbreeding depression". Inbreeding depression is nothing more than the pairing of detrimental like genes, another bad trait to be exposed and removed from the gene pool.
Last Edit: Jan 4, 2010 9:35:56 GMT -5 by AnnB (NE)
AnnB, Thanks for posting this. Very correct and on target info. I have always heard of breeding back to the mother/father called linebreeding, and that it brings out the best or worst traits of your animals. You should be prepared to cull hard if you do not get the results you want. It should only be done if your animals have great traits that you want to see in their offspring. If you do not like the cow/bull you have now, it wouldn't be a good idea to linebreed them, because you will be magnifying these traits. Also, I have heard that 'inbreeding' that should not take place is full sister to full brother. I've never done it, but I've heard that that is where you get 2 headed cows.... We have always practiced these rules in our Brangus herd and come out with a great looking herd. THere have been some exceptions that were destined to the freezer, but in the end we have a great looking herd of Brangus cattle.
I'm not an expert on genetics but here is my 2 cents worth. I breed chickens and dogs and pigeons and beef cattle.. Father to daughter son to mother is not in breeding it is line breeding. You can do this because there is a whole other cow in the mix as long as they weren't related. If you really like your cow and want to build on her strong points this is a way to do it. I have had good results in dogs and chickens this way.Breeding full siblings can sure give you problems in a hurry. I know this has been touched on but if you bred her back you'll have to dry her up at least 3 months before thecalf is born so the calf and cow will be in good shape. The milk cow is designed to be milked for a long period so her being open isn't a problem other than a neighbors bull or yooue bull calf trying to get to her. If it was me I would steer him and milk her for a while breed back then dry her up before she calves. Hope this helps. To breed or not to breed seems ot be the question here.
Full-sibling matings force the rapid pairing of genes, so give either the best or the worst quality offspring.
Some folks say if it works it's linebreeding, if it doesn't work it's inbreeding.
While it's truly all inbreeding, my personal take on it is that "linebreeding" should be defined as having a plan, the mating of relatives done with an eye towards improvement, and strict culling is practiced. While random matings of relatives with no plan, no eye towards improvement, and no culling, is inbreeding.
so i googled inbreeding cows and found this www.cattle-sale.net/articles/launch/23-06-2006Improvement-Through-Linebreeding.htm . i found it helpful,but lets just see if I am really getting it.. so if i breed my calf back to his mother i would be enhancing all her good point and her bad point in her character--is that right??( my cow is a wonderful placid cow ,birthed really well and produces planty of mlk and milks well..she has a good disposition,rarely gets grumpy and loves human contact) but if i was to cross my new calf with a full blooded sister then they could have troubles?? is that right??
Cows are normally bred 2 or 3 months after calving. Waiting 9 months is a long time in dairy cows. You might consider this because she was bred so young. But She might have been bred so young because HER sire, the herd bull where she came from, ran with the herd and got her bred. Unless you know that her sire and dam were far from related, then your keeping her son intact would be CONTINUING close breedings.
If you are way far from any other possibility for breeding then consider the son over dam option. Otherwise, it's not worth it. & Jersey bulls can be quite dangerous. -Sally McD
(has been SallyMA, and SallyCA in prior years.)
So I am wondering how Daisy's son and Loretta's daughter would be as a breeding pair? They have the same father, but of course different mothers. Could this be a good way to combine both Daisy's and Loretta's good traits if Sophie has a daughter?? Knowing Daisy is not a show cow but oh so healthy and just a good wash and wear kind of cow would you do this?? Realizing that would also mean that if an intact bull was around he would probably breed back Daisy too. We would be raising him long enough to breed and then butcher.
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else
Post by Black Star Ranch on Jan 9, 2010 20:30:46 GMT -5
We are also facing this question as we have an angus/hereford bull that we intend to keep to breed our milkcow and her daughter. None of them are related and we are just waiting for him to be old enough to "perform", however, we also have his mother and would allow them to breed solely for butchering if it doesn't lead to many problems.
We have also been told not to "linebreed" as it will lead to issues with the calf. As I read this thread, issues of the kinds of things one hears about with "inbreeding" would not occur between mother and son, especially since we have no intention of doing anything but butchering the calf.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Cows: Milkshake, MsBehavin, & Belle Calves: Soupbone, & Ripple
More or less, yes. Any cow that is preggers has a chance of having some kind of deformity/issue with the calf. Linebreeding (inbreeding, whatever you want to call it) just manifests things (weak or strong points) faster versus breeding to unrelated bovines. Janene
Occasional steer for the freezer
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