Fancy has had a smallish, about the size of a small orange, lump high on one quarter for several months now. We watched it, the neighbor applied liniment to the outside. It doesn't appear to be sore, we figured the calf caused it since that is 'her' main teat and she buts so hard. Well it has suddenly swollen to the size of a cantaloupe, still not painful unless you manipulate it too much.
I called the vet due to the recent rapid growth. I assured him she does not have any sign of mastitis or any other sign of ill health. He thinks it is an abscess and recommended 10cc x 3 days of a no withdrawal antibiotic shot. I dropped by to pick up the syringes. I have never heard of the medicine and forget the name.
I was first concerned that it might be the blind teat trying to come back since the does try to nurse it, but the vet doubted that and it is further back, right in the bend of the leg below where the kicker would attach.
Has anyone ever seen this? What causes it? He said if the abscess didn't heal internally, he had seen them form a sore and open out externally which would be terrible. Her said there would be lots of packing the wound with betadine and gauze and it could take months to heal.
I need all the prayers I can get that this medicine will heal it up internally. If that is infection, it is a huge amount. It has no heat to it and is very hard.
Last Edit: Oct 21, 2010 19:09:38 GMT -5 by barnydhppy
Is the antibiotic Excenel? Are you supposed to inject into the lump or just somewhere on the cow?
I would try putting hot compresses on the lump at least once a day (I put a bunch of medium sized towels in a bucket, pour hot water over them, and then hold them up on the area and massage) to help burn out any infection and get things loosened up.
Isabelle, 16 year old Guernsey cow
Clovis, Jersey steer born 6/2/2012
That sound's like what he called it. I looked on my receipt and it only had my payment, no info.
I didn't know about hot compresses. I am amazed that it stayed small for so long and then suddenly grew. We were thinking it was caused by Georgia hitting the udder so hard.
I gave her the shot in the neck muscle. I do not think I did it right. He said to hit her muscle twice and then give the injection. She about went to he knees when I gave it, it definitely HURT, tho she went right back to eating when I released her headgate.
I always give her shots subcutaneous, this was the first shot I have given in the neck muscle. I feel inept at it.
I hurt when they hurt. She got over it quicker than me. I dread the next one.
Is this an abscess of blood or milk?? Is it a clogged milk duct? It has no heat whatsoever? I cannot seem to find anything like it on the merick manuel?
Last Edit: Aug 27, 2005 18:30:08 GMT -5 by DebbieNar
Why Do Some Drugs Have Zero Withdrawal and Some Do Not?
The term withdrawal refers to the time period during which a producer or veterinarian must discontinue treating an animal with a drug before the meat and/or milk can be marketed for human consumption. Some drugs have lengthy withdrawals (or in the case of milk, discard time); others have no withdrawal, or "zero-day withdrawal."
According to Anthony Benitz, DVM, certain drugs are able to have zero-day withdrawal or zero milk withholding because the total residues of the drug in meat and milk are below safe concentration levels within a 12-hour period after dosing - a period considered to be a practical zero withdrawal time.
"However, with many drugs, residues at this time exceed the safe concentration and it becomes necessary to calculate withdrawal or milk discard times," says Benitz. "Following a drug's last use in an animal, the residue level in the animal's tissues drops over time. The time period from last drug administration to the point where the levels are below the safe concentration is known as the withdrawal time."
Benitz stresses that the work that goes into establishing withdrawal times is extensive, because the company developing the drug must provide the FDA with a method for determining a tolerance - in other words, a method for determining when the meat and/or milk from the treated animal can be marketed safely.
Because a drug is metabolized when administered to an animal - and it would be virtually impossible to monitor all metabolites - the company must identify a reliable marker compound (either the parent drug or one or more of its metabolites) and compare its depletion in the animal to that of the total residue.
The concentration of the marker compound at the time the total residue reaches the safe concentration level then becomes the tolerance. The withdrawal period is based on the time period when drug levels in edible tissues are below the tolerance. Drug levels that exist in higher concentrations than the tolerance are violative, whereas drug levels below the tolerance are non-violative.
So, maybe Excenel/ Naxel is not in the body long enough to effectively deal with mastitis since the milk is constantly moving out, but can fight an abcess? The Pfizer website says the drug concentrates in the area of infection.
Isabelle, 16 year old Guernsey cow
Clovis, Jersey steer born 6/2/2012
Well the lump is still there and still a cantalope. I gave her the second injection after milking tonite. Milking that quarter resulted in her far foot in the bucket twice. I didn't scold her, I feel sorry for her. It is the far side and the kicker was already on my side since she was fighting with horseflies. I killed 2 finally and didn't see anymore. I think I did a better job giving the shot , but rubbing the neck muscle sure let's her know what was next. She tried so hard to free her head. Afterwards she went right on eating like a horsefly had stung her. I sprayed her down with fly spray and released her. She wasn't mad and went right on eating. I put linament on the lump tonight, last night I put lard and cayenne after the hot compresses. Everytime she is done eating she goes and stands in the pond, I guess it feels good to her udder or fly bitten legs, who knows. I am almost certain it has nothing to do with the blind teat now. It seems to be just under the skin. It presses on the quarter something fierce and I think causes a lack of bloodflow since sometimes that teat feels so cool. I would lance it, but I fear what an infection that might set up in this heat and fly season. If the antibiotics do not work, I am at a loss. The milk from that quarter looks normal, tho we are discarding it now. The calf has terrible smelly gray scours and I fear she may have got something thru that quarter, tho it looks like if the abscess had even a pinhole to drain, the tightness of it would explode draining into the teat. The calf seems perfectly healthy except for the scours, so it may not be that. She may have gotten something from the turkeys, chickens, ducks, pigs, who knows??? She licks everything??? I sure would like to get this resolved, even tho she acts perfectly normal, such a huge abscess would surely make her sick if it got into her bloodstream somehow. I just cannot seem to find anyone who has ever seen such a thing. The vet said he had when he worked at the dairy. I am so thankful to finally have a vet who has experience with milk cows. If I was to give her an extended round of subQ slow pen would I mess her rumen up and end up making her sick. I sure wish I could resolve the abscess without lancing. Well I will quit whining, just needed to vent some, it is so frustrating waiting. Prayers for her would be greatly appreciated.
Post by DostThouHaveMilk on Aug 29, 2005 8:18:59 GMT -5
Are you able to post a picture of the lump?
I hate to mention this but feel I ought to. Our hauler refuses to take animals milked out with visible lumps. He will not take them because he knows they will not go for much. Apparently lumps up high on the udder are often caused by cancer and so the meat buyers aren't going to pay much since most or all of the carcass will be condemned? I'm not saying that is what it is. Sandy has a fairly good sized on her functioning rear quarter. Up fairly high. It hasn't changed size and doesn't seem to bother her or affect the milk at all.
Other times I've seen lumps on the udder were results of the toxic mastitis, but they tend to be in mastitis or blind quarters. More often blind quarters. They abscess, burst, and then drain once a lactation generally for the rest of the cows life. It does not affect the healthy quarters but does merit close watching to make sure the drainage does not get into the other quarters....
I'm gonna leave this thread open for dad to read and see if he has any ideas.
You can get in touch with me at SkyLark_RKR@yahoo.com if you have questions.
Post by quakerfarmer on Aug 30, 2005 2:08:56 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too blase about this, but I generally feel much better when I see a lump start to form on the udder. It just means to me that the cow's immune system is working as nature designed it. (More on this in a bit) Naxel is the trade name of the "no-withdrawal" antibiotic we use (very rarely, because it is super expensive). It was the only treatment we ever found that had any hope of success against what Roseanna has referred to as "killer mastitis". This was a totally new strain that hit the herd about 6 years ago, and wiped out a third of the cows before we learned the early warning signs and started with Naxel. It is not such a guaranteed killer now, because it has been on the farm long enough that there is a slight resistance in the younger stock. My understanding in regard to antibiotic treatment of mastitis (derived mostly from discussions with vets and personal experience) is that there are two basic routes to deliver antibiotic--intramammary infusions and through the bloodstream (injections). The problem is that the body's response to an infection is to wall if off. This results in also walling off the antibiotic one is trying to deliver. Depending on the location of the infection (whether it is low down, close to the teat and in a larger cistern, or high up in the tiny mammary glands) either a mammary infusion might work better in the first case, or a bloodstream injection in the second case. (kindof sneaking around behind and attacking the infection from the rear) The type of bactieria can also make a difference in what works best, depending on how the body reacts to the bacteria in terms of walling it off. Our problem with the "killer mastitis" was not that we couldn't "cure" it (i.e. kill the causative bacteria) but that the bacteria gave off such a powerful toxin when it died that the cows died of toxic shock. The only defense was to treat the cow aggressively with Naxel BEFORE she showed any of the normal siymptoms of mastitis. Fortunately, this is not a type of mastitis most folks will run into. Lumps---(I realize I'm rambling, but I have spent decades obsessing about mastitis and its treatment). As noted earlier, the body's defense against infection is to wall off the infection. Just like a pimple, or a festering splinter. If the lump is from a tiny pocket of bacteria that took hold in a small bit of mammary tissure high in the udder, and the body walled it off, then one wouldn't see normal mastitis symptoms. I have often seen these sit basically dormant in a cow for years, never really changing in size, until something (frequently a freshening) would suddenly start them up and they would swell and burst. This is a GOOD thing, because it allows the "pizen", the infection, out. Yes, it is messy, and in fly season it needs to be monitored carefully. Also, the exudate is a potential source of infection, but it is still better for the cow when the abscess is gone. On occasion an infection will be such that the cow walls off an entire quarter (they are all individually compartmented) and the entire quarter will come out the abscess over a period of weeks. Again, quite gross, but the improvement in the health of the cow is often remarkable, even if you didn't realize before that she was "a little off". There is also the possiblility Roseanna refers to, though I had never heard of it before our salebarn hauler started talking about it. It really does sound like an abscess where nature is doing its job--needs to be watched of course, and the hot compresses are an excellent suggestion. The antibiotics may quiet it enough that the body could eventually resorb the lump--Naxel can be pretty effective. Hope it does find a happy conclusion, one way or another.
Post by quakerfarmer on Aug 30, 2005 2:24:59 GMT -5
Oooops....my apologies. I just went back and reread the posts a little more carefully. Somehow I had overlooked some of the pertinent information in thy 12:37 a.m. post. I'm trying to picture whether the lump is on the udder where the leg is rubbing it? (we have one like that at the moment) I definitely would share thy reluctance to lance it, even though I know the temptation. When our vet was young he was quick with the lance, but he says he's learned better now--he has more trust in the natural process. sounds like in a day or so one might be seeing a little bit of a "scab" on the tightest part. I always feel it's legitimate to pick at that a little, but don't get down too close. More likely the cow's mud treatments will help bring it to a head, and the thing will blow sometime when she lies down. I know what thee means about giving shots in the neck muscle. They say that is the biggest muscle, etc., but I always feel like the needle is grating into bones, even though I know there aren't any there. I don't hit the cows on the neck, because that would confuse them coming from me (it doesn't matter to them if the vets do it, since they don't know the vets). I do what thee was doing, with the rubbing, and then press hard with my thumb for about 30 seconds (a trick I learned from my dentist--pressure anesthesia he called it). That seems to be as effective for me as the hitting, and a lot less traumatic. (I hate giving IM shots)
I appreciate your response, Quakerfarmer. The leg rubs the lump when the udder is full, not so much when the udder is empty. I wonder if I should go get more nexel? How much did you give per day and how many days?
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2010 17:15:51 GMT -5 by barnydhppy
Post by quakerfarmer on Aug 30, 2005 9:42:45 GMT -5
Debbie, I'm trying to remember what the dosage was on the Nacxel.....I'm thinking it was 20cc/day for four days. Our vets always tended to just about double the "recommended" dosage for the Jerseys when it came to antibiotics, and it didn't seem to cause a problem. I know we only used 80cc of a 100cc bottle, and the rest was wasted, as it does not keep well. It was so expensive (at $40+/session) that we only used it in dire situations. Unless the cow is feverish, I am always reluctant to go very heavily on antibiotics. I like to save them for use with major infections, that are more systemic. (I hate the thought of killing rumen bacteria). Even though we used the 80cc (assuming the cow was still alive) I am not sure it was really that necessary--it was more of a case of "use it or lose it". It never "felt" the same to me as the penicillin type drugs, where stopping too soon just encouraged resistant strains. How is the lump today? Does it seem to have discreet boundaries beneath the surface, or does it blend into the rest of the udder? Does any of it seem particularly hot? Thy comment about the possibility of circulation compromise to the teat (cold teat) would be reasonable--a large lump could also interfere with the lymphatic flow, causing some localized circulation slowdown. I'm still hoping it comes to a head soon, if it is indeed an abscess. (boy, thee'll have some interesting posts to put up for that, if it does......tomato aspic, my dad called it) I don't speak in jest here--sometimes the laying on of hands will guide thee in the treatment necessary. Wishing you all the best. Thomas
Post by quakerfarmer on Aug 30, 2005 10:18:48 GMT -5
I don't seem to know how to use this board. I did not see the pictures when I read the post before. That lump is not the kind Roseanna mentioned that, nor is it even that similar to what I was picturing. That does have the look (possibly) of a repeated "trauma" edema. (We used to get them on the inside of the shins when playing soccer--from repeatedly hitting the ball on the same spot) If an area of tissue is traumatized in a certain way, sometimes you get a slight leakage out of some of the fluid vessels--sometimes a later minor hit to the same place can make a big difference in the amount of leakage. Eventually, the body will reabsorb the fluid, if the cause is removed. (there are just so many fascinating things that happen in the natural world---scary sometimes) That does look like it could have been aggravated by calf butting. The little purplish scratched area in the upper front may tell the tale. If it is an abscess, that area would start to get shiny and tight as it stretches. I am used to seeing a lot more distinct "edge" to an abscess when it starts to grow. The surface of the skin would have almost a crease at the edges of the lump. I guess I would still feel that if the cow is not feverish or dauncy, antibiotics wouldn't do much. Is there any way to tell her baby to quit traumatizing mama? (I know, wishful thinking there...) Very nice pictures, by the way. And a nice quality looking udder.
Woo, that is quite a lump! I would have great longings to have it puncture and drain it, just because I want to know what is going on inside! Can you tell if it goes well into the quarter or is it more of a swelling right beneath the skin, outside of the udder tissue?
Isabelle, 16 year old Guernsey cow
Clovis, Jersey steer born 6/2/2012
Claire, it is the size of a large catalope, going deep into the quarter. There is a loose covering of hairy udder skin between the hard lump. I fear draining it in fly season, I also fear the drainage would seep between the skin and lump setting up an infection there. I called the vet to e-mail a photo, but they said they have none. I really doubt that, but I may print a picture and take it down to dicuss what to do next?
You have taken some very good photos. I would print them out and take them to the vet and show him just what you are dealing with. I bet he doesn't realize its as big as it is.
Sherry in Alabama
Jersey cow Coco
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